formal evening dress: vest or no?

[CMcG]

I'm wondering about vests (a.k.a. waistcoats) or lack thereof worn with the Prince Charlie and jackets/doublets of similar distinction: Brian Boru, Regulation, Spencer, Eton, Mess? The context would be formal evening wear, which in my neck of the woods is black tie/tuxedo equivalent.

In Charles Thompson's So You're Going to Wear the Kilt! he suggests that a black leather belt with shiny waist-plate is as appropriate as a 3 button vest (not both together) with a PC and black bow-tie. I've also seen pictures showing 5 button waistcoats worn with cravats/Ascots, with the extra height of the vest accommodating the length needing to be tucked in. From what I've gathered thus far, this gives three options for the PC or its approximate equivalents:
1. 3 button vest with bow-tie
2. 5 button vest with cravat
3. belt and waist-plate with bow-tie

If Thompson and the retail/rental catalogues are attempting to provide theory, what is the practice?

Which configuration do you prefer and why?

Pictures are most welcome!

[CMcG]

1. 3 button vest with bow-tie (this one seems most common)



2. 5 button vest with cravat (a newer look)



3. belt and waist-plate with bow-tie (less common despite Thompson)

[CMcG]

And here's my take. I'm leaning towards no vest... but I have my eye on one that's onsale just to have the option...

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

5 button vest with cravat

In my opinion this is a look "Best Avoided"-- and here's why:

The design and cut of a Prince Charlie is intended to be worn with a three button waistcoat, which comes up to the bottom of the lapel. For a five button waistcoat to work with the design of the garment, the lapels would have to be much, much, shorter.

Aside from the design aspect, there is another consideration which should be borne in mind-- formal attire requires a bow tie. It doesn't matter what one sees on the red carpets at the MTV awards, or worn by anorexic models on the catwalks of Milan. Formal attire is about an adherence to tradition, not trying to look trendy.

The photo above also illustrates why a belt should not be worn with a kilt-- while that above it points out why charcoal gray isn't considered appropriate for formal attire-- it looks "confused", and in a room of predominately black formal jackets it will stick out like the proverbial sore thumb, making the wearer look as if he's in a gray suit rather than in formal attire.

As far as the ruche ties/cravats are concerned... as Mr. Blackwell used to say, "Those are so last, last year..."

[davidlpope]

I think you should wear a PC with a bowtie and either a waistbelt OR a 3-button waistcoat. The belt looks better, to me, on men that are short and stocky, the waistcoat better on taller men. I think the broad expanse of white shirtfront on a taller man is prone to looking untidy.

My advice- Don't wear a 5-button waistcoat with a PC, don't wear a waistcoat with a belt, don't wear a four-in-hand tie or "ruche" tie with a PC or doublet, and don't wear a tartan bowtie or necktie with a kilt.

Cordially,

David

[CMcG]

<snip>
The design and cut of a Prince Charlie is intended to be worn with a three button waistcoat, which comes up to the bottom of the lapel. For a five button waistcoat to work with the design of the garment, the lapels would have to be much, much, shorter.

I think you should wear a PC with a bowtie and either a waistbelt OR a 3-button waistcoat. The belt looks better, to me, on men that are short and stocky, the waistcoat better on taller men. I think the broad expanse of white shirtfront on a taller man is prone to looking untidy.
<snip>

Thanks gentlemen, that's just the sort of explanations I was looking for. If it's a question of physique, davidlpope's advice could be very helpful. I however, am neither particularly tall nor particularly stocky, so perhaps either a waistbelt OR a 3-button waistcoat might just work for me.

I appreciate the waistbelt, no vest, black-tie pics from JSFMACLJR as that appeals to me most. I'm not clear though, if MoR seems to be suggesting that the PC should always be worn with a 3 button vest or if it was more that WHEN a vest is worn with a PC it should be 3 button. The bit about the long lapels, short vest makes visual sense to me.

Also, please don't think me a troll; I included the "5 button vest with cravat look" as reference, not because I was planning on wearing it. I like a good disambiguation and this thread is supposed to be about vest options, so it's great that we can get that one out of the way quickly!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Thanks gentlemen, that's just the sort of explanations I was looking for. I'm not clear though, if MoR seems to be suggesting that the PC should always be worn with a 3 button vest or if it was more that WHEN a vest is worn with a PC it should be 3 button.

Whether or not one wears a waistcoat with the PC is a matter of personal opinion (quite often dictated by prevailing weather conditions!). But when a waistcoat is worn with the PC it should always be one of the three button variety. In my opinion the PC should always be worn with a waistcoat. I just don't think it looks "finished" without one. For really hot climes (Texas, in the summer?) the best answer is a light weight dress Argyll jacket-- with or without a waistcoat.

I realise that Highland attire can be pricey but, if I lived somewhere really warm I'd invest in a lightweight/tropical weight dress Argyll jacket long before I'd consider buying a PC.

[Zardoz]

I know there is some precedent for the PC and belt/waistplate look, but I personally do not care for it. I think for formal dress the PC should be worn with a black bow-tie and a 3-button waistcoat. I have worn a black Argyll with black tie and belt/waistplate for "semi-formal" wear though.

[CMcG]

<snip>
In my opinion the PC should always be worn with a waistcoat. I just don't think it looks "finished" without one.

When I purchased my Prince Charlie, it came with the three button waistcoat, <snip>

<snip>
For the PC, I think the low-cut, 3-button waistcoat with bow tie is better.

I know there is some precedent for the PC and belt/waistplate look, but I personally do not care for it. I think for formal dress the PC should be worn with a black bow-tie and a 3-button waistcoat. <snip>

<snip>
If you are discussing a Prince Charlie jacket specifically, as these typically are sold as a unit with a 3-button waistcoat, that is the first recommendation. Though many of the pictures posted show a PC worn with a belt and waistplate (sans vest), I personally don't think this looks as nice.

As for the Sherrifmuir doublet...

There seems to be lot of favour for the PC with 3 button waistcoat and mixed reviews of other looks...

I chose the PC as my main example because of its prevalence but in my wardrobe lies a Spencer jacket, which I intend to wear as a PC replacement. That's why I originally asked about the broader spectrum of (what seem to me) related jackets: Prince Charlie, Brian Boru, Regulation, Spencer, Eton, and Mess. Does the same apply to the other jackets?

Apologies for the inclusion of the Sheriffmuir in the OP, which Matt commented on and made me realize my mistake. I have edited it because I meant Regulation (more similar to a PC):

[JSFMACLJR]

There also is another alternative: neither waistcoat not belt. Quite a few prefer this, and in warmer climes it makes good sense.