Panache Answers the "Big Kilt Questions"

[seanachie]

I will pose a question about the "are kilts Irish question"... think long and hard about this:

Is it that kilts are "now accepted as Irish as well as Scottish" OR is it that (mostly in North America) the person asking is not knowledgeable enough to know the difference and ASSUMES they're Irish b/c they don't know enough about the real history / customs of Scotland OR Ireland?

Seemingly a simple question, with a number of variables. So someone attired in a St Patrick's Blue or Saffron kilt should be presumed to be Scot? Here is a link to a NATO website for the forces in Kosovo http://www.nato.int/kfor/media/photo...0330a-003.html Now you have bagpipes and kilts.

No I am not trying to be facetious. I have learned a lot here and through the piece Matt and Todd wrote. I don't deny any of the points, the origins or history. I don't want to upset anyone or demean anyone's personal pride, I was just raising the point that over time and evolution other cultures have included the kilt as well. I believe I said earlier, I seek to find commonality not difference amongst us. I was just sharing my experience, since it seemed to be different from others. I also think that doesn't necessarily mean you have created fictitous history though admitedly not everyone has the same levels of understanding and knows the history.

[RockyR]

Seemingly a simple question, with a number of variables. So someone attired in a St Patrick's Blue or Saffron kilt should be presumed to be Scot? Here is a link to a NATO website for the forces in Kosovo http://www.nato.int/kfor/media/photo...0330a-003.html Now you have bagpipes and kilts.

No I am not trying to be facetious. I have learned a lot here and through the piece Matt and Todd wrote. I don't deny any of the points, the origins or history. I don't want to upset anyone or demean anyone's personal pride, I was just raising the point that over time and evolution other cultures have included the kilt as well. I believe I said earlier, I seek to find commonality not difference amongst us. I was just sharing my experience, since it seemed to be different from others. I also think that doesn't necessarily mean you have created fictitous history though admitedly not everyone has the same levels of understanding and knows the history.

Just to clarify, I meant my question in a purely innocent way of bringing up a point that seems to get overlooked, NOT b/c I 'took offence' to your posts (or anything like that).

An interesting point... Can something become 'accepted' as the norm (i.e. wearing a kilt to show off Irish Pride in North America) even if there are few in Ireland wearing kilts? Is it wrong? Is it just a case of 'it is what it is'? Do the Irish in Ireland think we're daft for wearing 'Irish Kilts' when they (generally) don't? Does that matter if the wearer feels a connection to the greater 'Pan Celtic Community' (to use someone else's phrase)?

I'm BY NO MEANS passing judgement on North Americans wearing Irish tartans. I have a few myself. I am just pondering aloud.

[herminator]

[seanachie]

I'm BY NO MEANS passing judgement on North Americans wearing Irish tartans. I have a few myself. I am just pondering aloud.

Funny thing you said that, and again the diversity of opinion....I do not own an Irish tartan specifically because they are not recognized by any legal Irish entity that I have discovered. (nor were they even designed in Ireland) I actually emailed the Irish culture minister about this but unfortunately this was right around the time of the last government stepping down. (PS sorry if you thought I had any concerns with your comments, not at all)

[Mike_Oettle]

Firstly, congratulations to Jamie on a concise yet sufficiently comprehensive list of answers to the typical questions.
Secondly, the Irish kilt thing barely raises its head in South Africa. Perhaps that is because (as far as I know) the only Irish band in this country that wears kilts is that of the South African Irish regiment.
The picture of the Irish band with KFOR is a most interesting one – especially since it shows the caubeens pretty well – but in my country, at any rate, the “Are you Irish” question rarely if ever arises.
And (even if Hermann feels this debate is flogging a dead horse) let it be said again that the kilt is a Scottish invention.
The philabeg was invented in Scotland and did not spread to other Celtic lands until the late 19th century. (And I have little or no information regarding Ulster Scots use – those better informed could chime in on this.)
Its predecessor, the feile mor, is only known to have existed in tartan within Scotland, although both this garment and the philabeg have also long been known in plain material.
Nonetheless the feile mor (in non-tartan material) is derived from much older Celtic styles of dress that once were worn in both Ireland and Wales.
Personally I like the idea of its being worn (in appropriate monotones or tartans) by Irishmen, Welshmen, Cornishmen, Bretons and any other Celts who might wish to get in on the act.
And women are welcome to wear similar garments (or masculine kilts) if they so choose.
Regards,
Mike

[spglenn]

Funny thing you said that, and again the diversity of opinion....I do not own an Irish tartan specifically because they are not recognized by any legal Irish entity that I have discovered. (nor were they even designed in Ireland) I actually emailed the Irish culture minister about this but unfortunately this was right around the time of the last government stepping down. (PS sorry if you thought I had any concerns with your comments, not at all)

I have no problem wearing my Irish Tartan here in Ireland...in fact most of the time people go "Oh!! How many are there?" So I reply there are 64 as there are two designs for every county, then there are all manner of Family, Provincial and other tartans. They may not be traditional and historic but as you can see they can look look and have a meaning to the wearer.

[spglenn]

Just to clarify, I meant my question in a purely innocent way of bringing up a point that seems to get overlooked, NOT b/c I 'took offence' to your posts (or anything like that).

An interesting point... Can something become 'accepted' as the norm (i.e. wearing a kilt to show off Irish Pride in North America) even if there are few in Ireland wearing kilts? Is it wrong? Is it just a case of 'it is what it is'? Do the Irish in Ireland think we're daft for wearing 'Irish Kilts' when they (generally) don't? Does that matter if the wearer feels a connection to the greater 'Pan Celtic Community' (to use someone else's phrase)?

I'm BY NO MEANS passing judgement on North Americans wearing Irish tartans. I have a few myself. I am just pondering aloud.

Nor this Ulster-Scots who wears a Donegal Tartan to honour and appease all four of his grandparental lines (because my Jonesing involves getting the clan tartans so I can wear the right one dependent on the hosts)

[Andy Proffitt]

Great post. I was just glad to see Panache pop up on a new post, you have been missed.

[tpa]

Could the Scottish /Irish confusion be the result of a relatively high or equal proportion of Irish origin Americans compared with those of Scottish origin? I'm asking rather than suggesting because I don't know the percentages.

It is not an issue in the UK!

[Ian.MacAllan]

. . . I'm surprised that some folks have been assumed to be Irish rather than Scottish. I've never met anybody who didn't assume me to be Scottish right from the start.

I've been taken for Irish only when wearing a solid color, never in a tartan.

Jamie, many thanks for a truly valuable thread. You and Matt and Todd are about the only people I can think of who can go on about kilts so long and fruitfully without ever slipping into fantasy. Very good show!


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