Mess jackets - questions

[Tobus]

You may recall my recent troubles finding an appropriate kilt jacket to wear to my step-daughter's wedding next weekend. I had hoped to find a standard Argyle jacket and waistcoat for a dressy-yet-nonformal look. But I simply can't afford to purchase one at this time. If I can't find something to wear with my kilt, I will default to wearing a standard black suit that I have.

This is an evening wedding (taking place at 6pm), but the dress code she has specified is a bit confusing. It is most decidedly nonformal for the guests, although she will be wearing a more formal dress. Her spouse-to-be's father will be wearing his military dress blues, though, so I know that at least someone else is dressing up. Most guests will probably be wearing anything from blue jeans and a nice shirt to slacks and maybe a tie. Might not see more than one or two suits, and probably nothing on the tuxedo level.

Anyway, since an Argyle jacket is out, I've been keeping my eyes open for anything that will work. This past weekend, as I was packing up stuff and moving it out of my late mother's house, I found my grandfather's USAF mess dress jackets (one black, one white). These are probably vintage 1960s-era jackets. I tried them on and they fit pretty darn well.

So I'm asking myself whether this would be suitable or appropriate for this wedding. Actually, I'm asking all of you!

I know absolutely nothing about mess dress, or the rules/traditions/etiquette on wearing it. So here are my questions:

1. Would this be overkill for the level of dress I mentioned above for this wedding? Granted, the kilt itself will be out of place with this crowd (I'd be the only one wearing a kilt, with most guests never having been around a kilt), so I don't expect any of them to know 'the rules' on kilt-wearing. But if I do attend the wedding kilted, I'll be standing out from the crowd already, so I don't want to overdo it even more by going super formal.

2. Is it even appropriate for a civilian to wear a military mess jacket? I'll try to take pics tonight if I get a chance, but this is a plain black mess jacket with silver buttons that have a small emblem on them (the buttons are not overly shiny, and don't look like they were meant to be). The jacket has small black loops on the shoulders for a shoulder-board that I would obviously not be using. The sleeves have a narrow black band near the cuff, but are otherwise plain. In other words, this jacket has no adornment. It's just a black mess jacket with 6 buttons on the front (3 on each side) and a double-button piece in the middle with a short chain. Pardon my not knowing all the terminology.

3. Assuming this jacket would not make me look like a civilian trying to pull off a military impersonation, what would be acceptable to wear as a shirt and tie? I seem to only see these worn with a tuxedo-style shirt and bowtie. Are they ever worn with a standard collar and necktie? Note: a ruche tie is not something I'll be putting around my neck, thank you very much. If I have to, I can probably afford an inexpensive tux shirt and black bowtie, but I'd rather not, since it would possibly be overkill on the formality scale for this wedding (though it might be nice to have for future purposes if I need it). But I'd like to see if there are other precedents on shirt/tie combinations that can be worn with it.

4. What would be appropriate kilt-related accessories to wear? I'd be wearing my 8-yard Colquhoun heavy wool 'tank', and probably my matching Argyll hose, dress sgian dubh, and polished black brogues. I do not own any fancy 'dress' sporrans. I do not own any sporrans with metal cantles or fur. It would either be a standard small black leather daywear sporran or my horse hair sporran (black leather flap, not a metal cantle). Would these be entirely inappropriate with this jacket?

My concern is that I'll be overdressed if I wear this jacket. But if there's a way to dress-down a mess jacket, that's what I'm looking for. And if I do, I have to make it work with the accessories I have.

So what do you think? Can it work, or should I reserve the wearing of mess jackets for truly formal events?

[Really a McQueen]

I'm not qualified to rule on what level of dress a mess dress jacket would fall under. Nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Why buy a shirt and tie (if appropriate), if you can rent on short notice? If renting, you may want to consider a black vest as well. I seem to recall that mess dress jackets are cut similar to tail coats, just without the long tails. Substitute some silver-tone buttons (from the local yardage store), and you have yourself something that approaches a Prince Charlie, without actually being one. But it does sound like this would be classed as a 'Black Tie' level outfit, if paired with the horsehair sporran.

[Cygnus]

Because mess jackets are very "tuxedo like" in nature, I don't think there is a way to "dress down" a mess jacket without making it look strange; it would be sort of like wearing a tailcoat rather than a blazer with other "nice casual" articles of clothing.

It sounds like what you wanted was a formal Argyll jacket with silver buttons, which, I would say, is overkill compared to what other guests are wearing (and even overkill compared with the dress blues of your step-daughter's future father-in-law). If you have a tweed jacket, I would wear that with a normal shirt and tie. If not, I would simply wear a shirt and tie with the kilt. You might not appear to be as polished as your counterpart, but you will fit in with the wedding party a bit better than if you wore a bow tie and formal shirt.

The mess jackets you have are 100% appropriate to be worn as a civilian and with a kilt (provided they don't have any military insignia, including on the buttons) - though they should be worn with a bow-tie and white formal shirt.

[Spartan Tartan]

Military mess jackets are certainly better suited to black tie events. You might find yourself over dressed if you find an outfit to go with that. And although you could "get away" with wearing it, you would likely be more comfortable in a tweed jack as others have described.

[mbhandy]

"You might not appear to be as polished as your counterpart, but you will fit in with the wedding party a bit better than if you wore a bow tie and formal shirt."


If you have a black suit wear the jacket, white shirt, and black tie and you would be fine. If you think others are wearing jeans when you take off the jacket you will fit in fine. The main thing is you could even wear the mess jacket for the wedding and pics and take it off for the reception.

Don't sweat the small stuff.
MrBill

[Newfoundlander]

What fantastic finds those jackets are!

Whilst I'm admittedly unfamiliar with 60's era mess kits, from the sounds of your description, they may be navy not air force. The reason for my thinking that is typically navy jackets are black or white, have six decorative buttons, and take shoulder-boards. Most air force mess kits are very dark blue or black, have no decorative buttons, and rank is worn on the cuff (except for general ranks). At least the modern ones are like that. Though this doesn't actually matter for the issue at hand...

I think it would be perfectly acceptable for a civilian to wear a mess jacket such as this. The fact that they're vintage 60's jackets certainly gives it a flare, and can take you out of the territory of wearing a "modern" uniform piece. I think you'd even be ok leaving the semi-shiny buttons on there, but I wouldn't polish them up if it were me, it would kind of take away from the vintage look that you'd get from that jacket. I might suggest cutting the stitching and removing the shoulder-board loops, that'll help make it look less like a uniform piece as well.

In the Regiment the mess kit was a red jacket, black waistcoat, which was worn with black with red line trousers, or for sergeant and above, the blackwatch kilt. The cut of these jackets look and feel fantastic for kilt wear in my opinion. Jeeze, I miss wearing this...

Anyway, back on track, one of your issues is not being overly formal. With this jacket your definitely straying into Prince Charlie territory. The Prince Charlie jacket and waistcoat itself is a military cut and styled jacket very similar to mess kits like this. However, since you didn't make mention of a matching waistcoat to go with it, it will look a little more casual than it would otherwise. Also, since your soon son-in-law's father is wearing what sounds like class 3 dress uniform, he'll be a bit more on the formal side, so it's acceptable for you to be a little more on that side as well.

To get there without entering the full PC look, I'd stay away from a pleated, wing-tip collar tux shirt; which is best served with a waistcoat anyway. Go instead with a plain white, normal collar shirt with french cuffs and simple cufflinks. Pair this with a non-satiny bow tie (not a strap on bow tie either), or simple black tie. Depending on the size of the decorative buttons on the white jacket, you could even take two off and make yourself a set of cufflinks out of them that will coordinate to the black jacket. Just a thought.

Finish off the outfit with a kilt belt and buckle, and black leather day-wear sporran. This will give you a bit more of an understated look. The full-formal hoarsehair sporran I think would be too much, and again push you into PC territory.

Post up a picture or two of those jackets if you can please, it would be great to actually see them and it might help give better ideas and humble opinions...

Hopefully this helps you lad! Congratulations to you and yours on the upcoming wedding!

[MacLowlife]

If you have a little time...
You can decommission the black jacket (I'd wait for warmer weather to wear the white one) a little further by swapping the buttons for civilian ones. Chances are very good they are on those tiny cotter pins. Eventually, you may want square ones like you'd find on an argyle, but any bright buttons with a shank will do. Or you could go with fabric covered ones from the tuxedo shop. I think brass ones as found on a navy blazer might actually make the jacket slightly less formal. You can skip the connecting chain. An Argyll would be open, too.

I would not bother trying to tone down the dressy fabric with leather buttons, though you may find some horn or bone ones that would look OK- but you'll have to sew those on...

You can either snip off the shoulderboard loops or you can make some epaulettes out of ribbon. I think I'd just slice the loops off with a razor.

As you observed, you will be the only one there in a kilt. You can be as dressed up or down as you like, but you are not going to hide by adopting a less formal jacket. Have you thought about maybe a checked shirt and a small patterned bow tie? Or maybe a solid blue oxford cloth shirt?

What sort of shirt and tie would you be wearing if you wore khaki trousers? Will that combo work with your kilt?

If you expect most men there to be without jackets (or without ties), you may decide to take off your jacket when you get there, but I think the kilt looks best with a jacket or a vest at least... So what if you are more dressed up than some people?

You posted in the Traditional forum, so I assume you want traditional advice. You can dress down your kilt outfit with your hose and sporran and shoes as easily as you can with the jacket. It IS a "dress mess" as in FULL dress, but this is a wedding- and you are a sharp dressed man in a kilt.

Send us some pictures

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

You may recall my recent troubles finding an appropriate kilt jacket to wear to my step-daughter's wedding next weekend.

Her spouse-to-be's father will be wearing his military dress blues, though, so I know that at least someone else is dressing up.

This past weekend I found my grandfather's USAF mess dress jackets (one black, one white). These are probably vintage 1960s-era jackets. I tried them on and they fit pretty darn well.

So I'm asking myself whether this would be suitable or appropriate for this wedding. Actually, I'm asking all of you!

One of the oft overlooked rules of wedding attire is that as a matter of mutual respect both the bride's family, and that of the groom, should be dressed to the same level of formality. That being the case it would be absolutely correct to wear a mess jacket with your kilt, provided you replaced the buttons and removed the shoulder board loops. However, before committing to wearing the mess jacket, make sure that it is long enough to cover the top of your kilt, with no shirt showing on the sides or back.

As has been already suggested you should be able to rent (or buy) a black three button vest at your local tux shop, along with a white dress shirt and black bow tie (avoid a wing collar shirt if you are aspiring to a less formal style). Round off the look with your hair sporran and you will have dressed to the same level of formality as the father of the groom.

[Newfoundlander]

One of the oft overlooked rules of wedding attire is that as a matter of mutual respect both the bride's family, and that of the groom, should be dressed to the same level of formality. That being the case it would be absolutely correct to wear a mess jacket with your kilt, provided you replaced the buttons and removed the shoulder board loops. However, before committing to wearing the mess jacket, make sure that it is long enough to cover the top of your kilt, with no shirt showing on the sides or back.

As has been already suggested you should be able to rent (or buy) a black three button vest at your local tux shop, along with a white dress shirt and black bow tie (avoid a wing collar shirt if you are aspiring to a less formal style). Round off the look with your hair sporran and you will have dressed to the same level of formality as the father of the groom.

I'll second MacMillian and say that a waistcoat can easily be hired from a shop and really would tip off your attire. That will your horsehair sporran would look smashing indeed. This level of dress in certainly on par with a classic Prince Charlie.

Two things to consider for the waistcoat rental is the length and colour. Some "modern" cut tux waistcoats come to the trouser waist nd not the natural waist and might look off with a kilt and extend past your jacket. A good tux shop should have both though. And black is not always black. Nothing looks worst than conflicting shades of black in a jacket and waistcoat pair. You could get lucky though. I wouldn't rule out other colours such as cream or off-white for your waistcoat. So long, of course, as the colour scheme doesn't look odd with your tartan.

What tartan is your kilt?

So after a little net research, I came across what sounds like a picture of your jacket here, about a third of the way down the page.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/foru...howtopic=23190

If so, this is quite the smart looking jacket and I think would go wonderfully with a kilt. Luckily these era of jackets were meant for trousers that sat at the natural waist, unlike more contemporary mess jackets that sit at the trouser waist and require a cummerbund.

Many here are advising you to remove the buttons and replace them. May I ask those in the thread, why is that? In my humble opinion only of course, you have a great vintage jacket so why try and pass it off as a modern jacket by putting the square PC buttons on it? The older buttons look great in the pictures above, and since this jacket is no longer an active piece of uniform its ok to wear. Also, there's the aspect that this was Tobus' Grandfathers jacket and by wearing it, in my mind anyway, your honouring him and his service. Should someone say to you "those are neat buttons," you can then reply "thanks, this jacket belonged to my Grandfather, and I think it's fantastic." I'd love it if years down the road my grandson wore my old mess jacket =) I don't mean to harp on this, I'm just wondering why?

[Tobus]

Thank you all for your advice so far. That's good stuff to know!

I hastily put these on last night to try to get some pictures before dusk while the light was still good. I don't have a bowtie, so I just wore a regular black tie for photo purposes. My wife, by the way, LOVES this jacket with the kilt. And I actually think it looks pretty good too, even with the regular tie. It doesn't look nearly as formal as I thought it would. Not like a PC, anyway. I suppose that's because of my tie choice and the fact that my sporran doesn't have a cantle.



I also tried it with a regular black day sporran, but I don't think I like it as much:



And here's the white jacket:



Last but not least, here's a close-up of the buttons. They are indeed military. That is the USAF logo. My grandfather was a full-bird Colonel, and was head of the Alaskan Air Command as well as the Strategic Air Command, among other roles.



So I will probably need to replace the buttons with something civilian, which is easily enough done. I'd rather not permanently alter the jacket by cutting off the shoulder board loops, though, unless it's absolutely necessary. What do you think? Would it be a fashion faux pas to keep the loops on the shoulders?

You posted in the Traditional forum, so I assume you want traditional advice. You can dress down your kilt outfit with your hose and sporran and shoes as easily as you can with the jacket. It IS a "dress mess" as in FULL dress, but this is a wedding- and you are a sharp dressed man in a kilt.

Yes indeed, I am wanting traditional advice. I may intentionally stray slightly from tradition for this wedding, since I'll be the only kiltie there, but I at least want to learn the rules of wearing a mess jacket before deciding whether to break them.

One of the oft overlooked rules of wedding attire is that as a matter of mutual respect both the bride's family, and that of the groom, should be dressed to the same level of formality. That being the case it would be absolutely correct to wear a mess jacket with your kilt, provided you replaced the buttons and removed the shoulder board loops. However, before committing to wearing the mess jacket, make sure that it is long enough to cover the top of your kilt, with no shirt showing on the sides or back.

That's a very good point, and I hadn't thought of that. I'm told he's wearing his USAF dress blues, which is dressy but not overly formal, as I recall.

Do you think this mess jacket is long enough in the back and sides, based on the picture above? It seems to have at least an inch or two covering the top of my kilt and part of the belt.

So after a little net research, I came across what sounds like a picture of your jacket here, about a third of the way down the page.

Yes, that is it exactly!