Scotland's Shame

[madmacs]

Now I do have to say that this is what came to mind when i read the title...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...nt_of_Scotland

[Peter Crowe]

Now I do have to say that this is what came to mind when i read the title...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...nt_of_Scotland

The term 'Scotland's Shame' was first coined in a speech by the composer James MacMillan, and subsequently became the title of a book of a collection of essays he contributed to some years ago. He was initially stung into public comment when his daughter was called an anti-Irish Roman Catholic epithet because of her school blazer by a bigoted male youth.

The book was a collection of essays by various academics, and cultural figures in Scotland edited by the Scottish and Irish Historian, Professor T.M. Devine on the subject of specifically anti-Irish Roman Catholic prejudice in modern Scottish society.

My wife (then fiancee) and I attended the book's launch at the Borders book store that used to be in Glasgow's Buchanan Street (about 10 years ago). Each perspective was different, based on the different experiences and/or observations of each contributor.

[Sheep In Wolf's Clothing]

I think the police might be vigilant after what happened last year when the Celtic Manager was attacked on the pitch. He also received death threats as did several prominent Celtic supporters. Celtic has also just been reprimanded for fans chanting sectarian songs during games. So it seems to be a touchy subject still. Though I think the Police officer did over react a little.

I listened to a podcast not too long ago from the BBC about this topic, and frankly I still don't understand hating people you don't know based solely on their religion.

My best friend is a Roman Catholic and sadly a Rangers supporter.I'm an atheist and a Celtic supporter..we get along just fine..except on Old Firm match days, when there is some heavy trash talking,but never has our religious views(or lack there of) ever come into the conversation!
YNWA
Sara
P.S. Tunnocks needs to make their tea cakes gluten free!!

[O'Callaghan]

Being a non-Scot, I don't know much about this subject, but I wonder how much of it really has to do with the differing beliefs of Catholics and Protestants, and how much of it has to do other issues, such as which team to cheer for.

That's rather the point. In a Celtic v Rangers game there is absolute identity between religious affiliation and which team the fans root for. They are the same. Catholics are for Celtic and Protestants are for Rangers. If there had been a riot, untangling whether it was religious or team related would necessarily be entirely impossible.

ETA: Seems I am wrong, from the post above.

Whilst it might have been unwise to have worn a scarf with the Pope's likeness on it, I do sympathise with the fan, as it was a commemorative scarf and obviously of sentimental value, and honestly, an ordinary Celtic scarf would be as much of a red rag to some Rangers fans.

Bear in mind that whilst my user name would be obviously Catholic to Scottish football fans, I am in fact an atheist, and my background is a mixture of English Protestant, English agnostic/atheist and Irish Catholic. Mind you, a lot of Scottish Catholics are of Irish descent anyway. Frankly, I would stay well away from a Celtic/Rangers match myself.

[Sheep In Wolf's Clothing]

Catholics are for Celtic and Protestants are for Rangers.
ETA: Seems I am wrong, from the post above.

Was this from my post? You are correct about the usual team/religious affiliations. I just clumsily assumed that people knew that, and I was just trying to show that sometimes the team loyalties don't fall down the religious lines people normally assume. (and that supporters can get along regardless)

Sorry it's been a long day!
Sara

[AFS1970]

The Sun article is not very well written and could be construed as suggesting such but the way I read it was that it was the cop's over-reaction in confiscating the scarf which could have potentially caused a riot, not the displaying of the image of the Pope.

That was what I got out of the article also. So basically we have a potentially riotous response to an (overzealous) attempt to reduce rioting.

That's just sad. Have we really reached that point where displaying an image of the pope on a scarf is considered a danger for "potentially causing a riot?" Really?

Sadly we (I think on both sides of the pond) have become so PC that we start looking at things that may make someone feel uncomfortable as a high crime against society.

My best friend is a Roman Catholic and sadly a Rangers supporter.I'm an atheist and a Celtic supporter..we get along just fine..except on Old Firm match days, when there is some heavy trash talking,but never has our religious views(or lack there of) ever come into the conversation!

That's rather the point. In a Celtic v Rangers game there is absolute identity between religious affiliation and which team the fans root for. They are the same. Catholics are for Celtic and Protestants are for Rangers. If there had been a riot, untangling whether it was religious or team related would necessarily be entirely impossible.

Not knowing the whole situation I was going to ask about this, are certain teams supported more by members of certain denominations? I guess that is the case. So is this move an attempt to end sectarianism at sporting matches only or throughout society in general?

We had enough problems with how threads went even when tartan was involved during the Pope's visit.

Yes, but IMHO those threads were lead astray by folks who set out to do just that because of sectarianism, not despite it. I haven't seen such happen in four pages of posts in this thread yet.

[Peter Crowe]

That's rather the point. In a Celtic v Rangers game there is absolute identity between religious affiliation and which team the fans root for. They are the same. Catholics are for Celtic and Protestants are for Rangers. If there had been a riot, untangling whether it was religious or team related would necessarily be entirely impossible.

ETA: Seems I am wrong, from the post above.

Whilst it might have been unwise to have worn a scarf with the Pope's likeness on it, I do sympathise with the fan, as it was a commemorative scarf and obviously of sentimental value, and honestly, an ordinary Celtic scarf would be as much of a red rag to some Rangers fans.

Bear in mind that whilst my user name would be obviously Catholic to Scottish football fans, I am in fact an atheist, and my background is a mixture of English Protestant, English agnostic/atheist and Irish Catholic. Mind you, a lot of Scottish Catholics are of Irish descent anyway. Frankly, I would stay well away from a Celtic/Rangers match myself.

Well Yes and No.......

The motivations of the fans are a bit more complex than just a simple difference in religious belief. Many people who disavow actual religious belief, but use those denominational labels because of their family's denominational tradition (and perceived ethnic heritage) support either team. As I stated before it has an aspect of loyalty to the group within which one was brought up regardless of actual belief in matters of theology and church doctrine. An element of this group loyalty is also complicated by affiliation and identification (to various degrees) with either side of the politico-religious conflict in Northern Ireland (Ireland as a whole before 1921), going back to the Ulster crisis of 1912. I also know fans of Celtic who claim to be atheist Marxists but support the Hoops because they perceive them to have stronger proletarian credentials than the Light Blues.

It is also my experience that the vast majority of people who have religious faith, and take it seriously (whether Protestant or Roman Catholic) and who may or may not identify with either team are not sectarian bigots. Not all Old Firm fans are bigoted knuckledraggers, in fact the vast majority are anything but. I personally stopped supporting Rangers in the late 1990's because I felt (as one of the silent majority) that my continued silent support amounted to acquiescence and approval of certain songs and the sectarian views they express.

[AndrewtheScot]

Living in America, I am not as aware of the issue of religion seperating people as those of you where that is part of your history more than ours. I think we have a picture postcard view of Scotland that filters out the bad.

As Americans we deal with race more than anything and thank God that has gotten better, not color blind yet, but better.

We forget that all cultures have things that need improvement, even our picture postcard worlds. Scotland is a place that lots of us long to see because of our ties by blood.

So, here is one American Scot who is praying for peace in Scotland and everywhere this Advent season.

[bdkilted]

I was recently on another forum where they used argued against sectarianism in Scotland, but then went on to condemn all people of faith. It seems to me, in the articles I have read that the government is using the rare sectarian violence (usually associated with football games) as an excuse to stamp out religion in the UK. That is sad, as here in the states we have found that the more religious a person is, the less violent they tend to be, with one possible exception that will remain unsaid due to forum rules.

[AFS1970]

I was recently on another forum where they used argued against sectarianism in Scotland, but then went on to condemn all people of faith. It seems to me, in the articles I have read that the government is using the rare sectarian violence (usually associated with football games) as an excuse to stamp out religion in the UK. That is sad, as here in the states we have found that the more religious a person is, the less violent they tend to be, with one possible exception that will remain unsaid due to forum rules.

Well said, I agree wholeheartedly.