Sarong or So Wrong?

[CDNSushi]

Just dont wear it out or you might end up here: peopleofwalmart.com

Baloney! I wear mine out all the time and everywhere. If some prepubescent nitwit wants to snap a photo of me and post it somewhere because he's got nothing better to do, I don't care. I don't dress for anyone but myself and will wear whatever I please when I go out.

Sarongs are fine, but I don't have the cultural right to wear one.

What does that even mean? Are you saying that an American baby adopted into a Burmese family wouldn't have the cultural right to wear one either? Having befriended enough Burmese and Sri Lankans over the years gives me the cultural right as it demonstrates that I have respect and appreciation for their traditional garments.

I also do wear kimono, including "tabi" socks, "fundoshi" underwear, and "geta" sandals. I also cook Japanese food in my kitchen, speak Japanese with my non-Japanese and very Canadian wife, and it doesn't bother me one bit that I have no Japanese blood in me.

I think people get way too caught up in what they feel entitled to do based on their culture, upbringing, or geographical location. We have no choice about when/where/to whom we are born. As such, to a certain extent I think that excessive pride and association with something that I had no choice in is a little silly. I feel that I am a citizen of the world and have the freedom to express myself with a corresponding level of freedom.

[Bugbear]

What does that even mean? Are you saying that an American baby adopted into a Burmese family wouldn't have the cultural right to wear one either? Having befriended enough Burmese and Sri Lankans over the years gives me the cultural right as it demonstrates that I have respect and appreciation for their traditional garments.

I also do wear kimono, including "tabi" socks, "fundoshi" underwear, and "geta" sandals. I also cook Japanese food in my kitchen, speak Japanese with my non-Japanese and very Canadian wife, and it doesn't bother me one bit that I have no Japanese blood in me.

I think people get way too caught up in what they feel entitled to do based on their culture, upbringing, or geographical location. We have no choice about when/where/to whom we are born. As such, to a certain extent I think that excessive pride and association with something that I had no choice in is a little silly. I feel that I am a citizen of the world and have the freedom to express myself with a corresponding level of freedom.

CDNSushi, you are participating in those cultures; I am not, and that is all I am saying.

[CDNSushi]

CDNSushi, you are participating in those cultures; I am not, and that is all I am saying.

Ahh, but there's the rub. You, me, everyone, all have the choice to participate in any culture -- whether it be by attire, food, language, dance... By eating at an Italian restaurant you are participating in Italian culture. I have never heard anyone say: "Um, can we not go to Luigi's Pizza? I just don't feel culturally entitled to eat Italian food. I'm not Italian." That would be really odd.

So why are there such hang-ups about attire? ith:

[Bugbear]

Ahh, but there's the rub. You, me, everyone, all have the choice to participate in any culture -- whether it be by attire, food, language, dance... By eating at an Italian restaurant you are participating in Italian culture. I have never heard anyone say: "Um, can we not go to Luigi's Pizza? I just don't feel culturally entitled to eat Italian food. I'm not Italian." That would be really odd.

So why are there such hang-ups about attire? ith:

That would probably be Italian-American food, no, they (the pizza place owners) are participating in my culture; not the other way around.

* Edit: sorry, I didn't answer this. "So why are there such hang-ups about attire?"
Probably from being attacked for or accused of ruining someone else's culture all the time, and pretty much most of my life. Guess it's my problem.

[James Hood]

The auld hippie in this writer really likes the, "citizen of the cosmos, man, dig it all...cool...." concept.

[Tobus]

Ahh, but there's the rub. You, me, everyone, all have the choice to participate in any culture -- whether it be by attire, food, language, dance... By eating at an Italian restaurant you are participating in Italian culture. I have never heard anyone say: "Um, can we not go to Luigi's Pizza? I just don't feel culturally entitled to eat Italian food. I'm not Italian." That would be really odd.

So why are there such hang-ups about attire? ith:

That's a very interesting sociological question, and I think it really boils down to whether a person feels like they belong to a particular culture that is their "home base", or whether they feel free to roam amongst other cultures (in the context of food, language, dress, religion, or what-have-you).

Most people grew up in a particular culture and that is who they are. They might identify with other cultures that are a part of their family history, or cultures that they have lived in (like you, CDNSushi, living in Japan and being immersed in that culture). But it does seem a little odd for a person to randomly decide to identify himself with a culture that he has zero ties to. Eating their food is not really applicable, as it's simply a form of enjoying what the culture has to offer for an evening, and not identifying oneself as a part of it.

And really, that's what this comes down to. Clothing is an identifier of who you are. It always has been. And while there is no particular "rule" against it, wearing the clothing of another culture that one has no ties to is, as Jock Scot might say, "just not done" in most circles.

For example, I might go to an Italian restaurant and enjoy an authentic Italian meal (which pizza is most definitely not). But that's not quite the same as walking around speaking with a fake Italian accent, saying "Ciao" to everyone I know, and riding a Vespa while wearing a long scarf. (OK, OK, I know that's a pretty laughable stereotype, but you get my point.) People would likely look at me funny and ask if I'm part Italian or if I lived there. Not that there's any rule against it, but it's just "not done" amongst normal people.

*shrug* That's just the way it is in the world. I think it's great for people to explore and enjoy other cultures, and partake in the "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" mentality. But that's quite different than doing as the Romans do when one has never been to Rome, doesn't know any Romans, and just arbitrarily decided to act like a Roman because it's fun.

I would never engage in, nor condone, the type of berating that some people do over these things. But surely you understand why people might hesitate to adopt the dress of a culture that they have no ties to, simply out of a sense of common social grace?

[CDNSushi]

And really, that's what this comes down to. Clothing is an identifier of who you are. It always has been. And while there is no particular "rule" against it, wearing the clothing of another culture that one has no ties to is, as Jock Scot might say, "just not done" in most circles.

I think that's probably what a lot of it comes down to... But that being the case, why have SOME elements of cultural identification become commonplace outside their paradigm of origin and others not? Why jeans but not Russian fur hats? Why thong-style sandals (or flip-flops) but not kimono?

But that's not quite the same as walking around speaking with a fake Italian accent, saying "Ciao" to everyone I know, and riding a Vespa while wearing a long scarf. (OK, OK, I know that's a pretty laughable stereotype, but you get my point.) People would likely look at me funny and ask if I'm part Italian or if I lived there. Not that there's any rule against it, but it's just "not done" amongst normal people.

Well, we can break that one down a little bit though. As you said: "fake Italian accent" is just that. Fake. Whereas everything else about the scenario you described, riding around on a Vespa, wearing a long scarf and saying "Ciao" are not fake, and in my mind, perfectly acceptable.

But that's quite different than doing as the Romans do when one has never been to Rome, doesn't know any Romans, and just arbitrarily decided to act like a Roman because it's fun.

And so we come full circle. And that is precisely what Jock Scott talks about when he looks at those of us who choose to wear kilts and wonders, "***." I would imagine that a good number of kilt-wearers on this forum have never visited Scotland... Which, while being perfectly acceptable in my books, is strange to some, and even blasphemous to others... Except that I don't believe we are playing at being Scots any more than I am playing at being Italian by driving a Vespa, wearing a long scarf, and saying Ciao... Now if I suddenly adopted an Glaswegian accent "just coz..." then I think that crosses the line between appreciating what a culture has to offer and being a poseur.

I would never engage in, nor condone, the type of berating that some people do over these things. But surely you understand why people might hesitate to adopt the dress of a culture that they have no ties to, simply out of a sense of common social grace?

Yup. But again, what baffles me more than anything is the selectivity of it... Why some aspects of cultural adoption are acceptable and commonplace and others are not. For instance, sarongs have most CERTAINLY been adopted as common attire outside of Southeast Asia.... for WOMEN. But not so much for men. Why not? I still think western society has this pervasive, morbid FEAR of all things feminine or that are associated with femininity. A subset of that is homophobia, but I think it transcends that. Certainly there are many more issues at play here, but as we are talking specifically about sarongs here in the context of a kilt-wearers' forum, which is a subset of a broad spectrum of male unbifurcated garments, I think it's relevant and fair to think about this issue and the impact that many traditional views on gender and sexual preference have not only on one's own wardrobe, but perception of others in public. This, more than anything I think infects the acceptability of wearing certain items, far more than the culture of origin.