Elizabeth Queen of Scots

[Peter Crowe]

I have just had a very enjoyable hour watching the programme on iplayer.

There are kilts in profusion! and the footage of the award ceremonies at Holyrood shows all kind of accompanying items (eg ruche ties, PCs being worn in daytime) that would have some folk up in arms but HM turns not a hair.

The comments of the Chief Minister are also enlightening as to a continued royal relationship with Scotland.

Alas the Earl of Strathearn is not shown kilted

Some great old movie news films in it too.

As we cannot get this in the States, I'd be interested to know what Wee Eck (The First Minister) was saying about Scotland and the Monarchy.

[Phil]

As we cannot get this in the States, I'd be interested to know what Wee Eck (The First Minister) was saying about Scotland and the Monarchy.

By 'Wee Eck' I presume you are having a derogatory swipe at Alec Salmond, the First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party. I think you will find that Mr Salmond has great respect for the Monarchy and has unequivocally stated that it will continue after independance. The Union of the Crowns pre-dated the political union by about a hundred years and is a quite separate institution. The United Kingdom will continue whereas Great Britain will (hopefully) consist in future of England and Wales with Scotland as an independant country.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Yeah, me, too. I remember seeing a baptismal font that pre-dated 1066 in chesterfield. I was thinking, "There's almost nothing extant in the U.S. that I am likely to see that is that old." I know, I know, there are ancient ruins and such around, so please don't lecture me about ancient civilations on the American continents , but that font was still being used!

HRH the Duke of Rothesay has shoes older that most of the houses around here!

While I'll freely admit that there is very little pre-17th century "European" architecture in North America I think most Americans (and Canadians) over-estimate the antiquity of British domestic architecture. Less than 20% of all houses in the UK date from before 1918. About 50% of all the houses in the UK have been built since 1960. In fact, 75% of the total number of houses in the UK were built after 1939. These percentages more-or-less correspond with the same housing demographic in the USA (and probably Canada, although I don't have hard numbers for our neighbors up North).

The big difference, of course, is architectural density. Compared to Canada or the USA the UK is a relatively small country, and everything is more tightly packed. Condensing many buildings into a relatively tight space does give the impression of "more", when in actual fact, the number of habitable/useful buildings constructed between 1800-1900 in North America exceeds the number of those buildings in the UK. Looking at the number of extant useful buildings constructed between 1700 and 1800, the UK would certainly have the advantage, Jamestown and Colonial Williamsburg not withstanding.

[Peter Crowe]

By 'Wee Eck' I presume you are having a derogatory swipe at Alec Salmond, the First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party. I think you will find that Mr Salmond has great respect for the Monarchy and has unequivocally stated that it will continue after independance. The Union of the Crowns pre-dated the political union by about a hundred years and is a quite separate institution. The United Kingdom will continue whereas Great Britain will (hopefully) consist in future of England and Wales with Scotland as an independant country.

Actually Phil, you presume wrongly in this case! I happen to quite like and admire the First Minister whom I believe to be Scotland's preeminent political leader of our time. The term Wee Eck was used playfully and affectionately and not intended to be derogatory or offensive to or about Alex Salmond.

As to my politics I try and avoid discussing them here and haven't hitherto stated my views on Scotland's constitutional future. I can honestly say I haven't yet made up my mind although I know which direction I am leaning toward (as I no longer have a vote in Scotland the point is moot).

However, Mr. Salmond was part of the 79 Group (for which he was once expelled from the SNP), and I was curious as to what he said in the documentary. I also fully understand the difference between the Regal Union of 1603 and the Parliamentary Union of 1707.

[cessna152towser]

On the one occasion when I was invited to a Garden Party at Holyrood House, it was hosted by Prince Charles and Prince William. Neither wore kilts that day, although there were kilts in profusion among the guests, including myself in my Cunningham heavyweight kilt. The invite to a Royal Garden Party is intended to reach as many of the Monarch's subjects as possible and should you receive an invitation to a second Garden Party it is etiquette to politely decline and to point out that you have been to one already, in order that the invite can instead be extended to someone who has never attended.

[kilted scholar]

As we cannot get this in the States, I'd be interested to know what Wee Eck (The First Minister) was saying about Scotland and the Monarchy.

As others have indicated the First Minister appeared as a staunch conservative (small c), stressing historical continuity, the historical precedence of the union of the kingdoms over the union of the parliaments, and praising the Queen for her comprehensive knowledge of governmental affairs. In this he echoed Harold Wilson, who once remarked that the Queen had read every Cabinet paper, every committee report - more than he or any of his government could have done - and had done this of course since the peace-time Prime Ministership of Churchill, so that no PM could afford to ignore her (in her constitutional role of giving advice, encouragement and warning).

As for the documentary the evidence was clear that a substantial number of the many kilted figures (especially those being given honours by HM) had not received advice from some members of XMTS, and had committed faux pas that their fellow native Scots would frown on, all in the presence of their supreme chief, who was not in the slightest bothered by it. Perhaps, some might surmise that she might think, and others too, that this was "not done": but of course there is no evidence whatsoever to support the claim. In short, the wearing of the kilt - even in supreme cermonial situations - is a living phenomenon, not a fixed museum piece.

[Peter Crowe]

As others have indicated the First Minister appeared as a staunch conservative (small c), stressing historical continuity, the historical precedence of the union of the kingdoms over the union of the parliaments, and praising the Queen for her comprehensive knowledge of governmental affairs. In this he echoed Harold Wilson, who once remarked that the Queen had read every Cabinet paper, every committee report - more than he or any of his government could have done - and had done this of course since the peace-time Prime Ministership of Churchill, so that no PM could afford to ignore her (in her constitutional role of giving advice, encouragement and warning).

Thank You kilted scholar. You have confirmed what I suspected was the First Minister's position, and one with which I also share a great deal of sympathy.

[McClef]

Phil has provided an adequate answer to Peter's question that was directed at me.

I have no idea where Peter got "Wee Eck" from whether it was playful or otherwise, however. I have never seen it used before!

Besides paying tribute to the Queen, Alex Salmond also praised The Duke of Rothesay, The Princess Royal and the Earl of Strathearn for their commitment to and knowledge of Scotland. So I do not think that he is one of those who automatically thinks that matters should change upon HM's passing.

Alex Salmond would indeed not be the first person to have changed their mind regarding the Monarchy once they came to deal the Monarch having achieved office. Many former radicals achieve wisdom with age.

[Peter Crowe]

Thank You Trefor,

I don't wish to stray so far off-topic but.....

To be honest, I can't remember where I first read or heard the term Wee Eck, which I have seen used by several journalists and commentators on Scottish politics since at least 2007 when Mr. Salmond became First Minister. Eck is sometimes used as a diminutive of both the name Alexander (my own son's name) and less commonly Eric in Scots and/or Scottish Standard English. It struck me as a typically Scottish way of poking gentle fun at the man's rise to high office and I took it in the same spirit as the commonly heard "I kent his faither" said of someone who has become successful just to ground them, nothing more, nothing less.

However, using such a term is not/was not a smear or a politically partisan statement. I am very conscious that this is not the forum for that, and I try when discussing Scotland's history, culture, and contemporary society (which are subjects I happen to know just a little about, having studied them at University level and lived there until 2003) to leave my political opinions out. As I have been out of the country for a few years I merely asked a question and referenced the FM as I have described, not for one minute suspecting that anyone would read anything more into it than I intended.

[Phil]

To be honest, I can't remember where I first read or heard the term Wee Eck, which I have seen used by several journalists and commentators on Scottish politics since at least 2007 when Mr. Salmond became First Minister.

You are obviously a follower of the right wing, unionist press who are in the majority here and who never miss an opportunity to ridicule and belittle Alec Salmond and his colleagues. The other party leaders are rarely, if ever, referred to in similar pejorative terms. The media (and I include the broadcast media as well) each have their own agenda, of course, but supporting Mr Salmond and his colleagues is most definitely not one of them. It must be difficult to operate in the face of such continual negative reporting at every turn which makes his overwhelming support among the people all the more remarkable.