"New" Clan MacTavish Dress Tartan

[Tam Piperson]

The idea of a predominantly white tartan probably stems from surviving examples of Highland ladies' dress, most notably the arisaid, which was generally a length of woven fabric featuring a white background with a tartan pattern, as seen in the one woven by Christina Young in 1726:

[figheadair]

I've never been a fan of the white-based dress/airsaid/dance tartans. The red MacTavish tartan is quite striking though, and the blue Thompson tartan is very lovely as a dress tartan, and the brown hunting MacTavish is handsome as well. I can't say the same for this new dancer's tartan however.

Arisaid and dress tartans are similar but not the same. The latter have their origins in the former but true arisaid setts have their origins in domestic blanket setts and allegedly women's wear. They were not white versions of clan tartans, which of course didn't exist in the C18th, but something completely different as can be seen from the examples in Figs 8 and 9 here. The exception to this difference is possibly what is now called Dress MacPherson which may originally actually have been a blanket pattern.

N
Now I maybe wrong here Jock, but I was under the impression that "dress" tartans came about from Queen Victoria, that a red based tartans was improper for a lady to wear. So the predominantly red was changed to be more white "dress Stewart" was born and other clans followed suite. I also think that the designation of a dress tartan with the dominant white in it makes sense in most people's heads because as an everyday tartan to wear it would show and get dirty more readily. So dress may be a formal wear tartan that was created by a woman
David

Dress setts were not invented by Queen Victoria but did come about during her early reign and seem to have been the invention of the Sobieski Stuarts although they did not use the term 'dress'. They included a white version of the (Royal) Stuart which they called 'Victoria', presumably to curry favour with the establishment that they aspired to join.

[AKScott]

I wonder if the black & white "dress" Scott tartan (shown here worn by Mr. Scott on Star Trek) was actually intended to be more of a border/shepherd's check?

I think I heard somewhere there are only seven registered monochrome setts, counting Northumberland shepard's check as one of the seven.

Scott dress #1 is here: http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tar....aspx?ref=3697

Scott dress #2: http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tar....aspx?ref=3698

Scott monochrome is rendered on the register as mostly black with a little white:http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tar....aspx?ref=3691

though when I do see it I generally see it rendered as mostly white with a little black: http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum3....-please-71062/

and rendered mostly white in Strome: http://www.lochcarron.com/tartanstro...and_white.html

I would be willing to wager, subject to forum rules of course in a friendly way with no money on the line, that we'll find no rhyme or reason to this. I'll wager there are so many exceptions that it is about pointless to try to even come up with a generalization.

From what I have been able to figure out about my own clan setts, the green is more or less the day wear kilt and you might buy a kilt in clan red for formal wear, or you could just get a red one and have the one kilt.

But a delightful new sett for the MacTavish's no mater who ears it. Also, thanks Kyle for your illustrative examples, I am seeing these in a new light.

[figheadair]

The idea of a predominantly white tartan probably stems from surviving examples of Highland ladies' dress, most notably the arisaid, which was generally a length of woven fabric featuring a white background with a tartan pattern, as seen in the one woven by Christina in 1726:

See my comments in #12. This 1726 blanket was intended for domestic use and not to wear as an Erraisaid.

[MacGumerait]

"Dress" has become, at least in some circles, the term used to describe tartans with white fields most often worn by Highland dancers. A perusal of "Dress" clan tartan listings will bear this out. Our small clan has not had an official dress tartan for over 150 years, so MacTavish (and many Thompson) girls have had to choose another clan's tartan for competition. Our Chief has remedied that, with my thanks on the girls' behalf.

David , I like this tartan , I will have to admit that some dress tartans don't appeal to my eye and some do , ( just personal preference) but I do like this one .

Also , I get where you are coming from . You are letting us know that Clan MacTavish now has a dress tartan which was approved by the Clan Chief .

The fact that dancers often wear " dress tartans " was just a side note . MacTavish dancers now have a choice .

Other than that , I don't think there was a " trans-Atlantic divergence of definition " .

It didn't appear to me that you misunderstood the definition of " dress tartan " . Only pointing out that the MacTavish Clan now has a " dress tartan " and that it can be used by dancers if desired .

You can rest easy Jock , I don't think there is a muddle here .

[Jock Scot]

David , I like this tartan , I will have to admit that some dress tartans don't appeal to my eye and some do , ( just personal preference) but I do like this one .

Also , I get where you are coming from . You are letting us know that Clan MacTavish now has a dress tartan which was approved by the Clan Chief .

The fact that dancers often wear " dress tartans " was just a side note . MacTavish dancers now have a choice .

Other than that , I don't think there was a " trans-Atlantic divergence of definition " .

It didn't appear to me that you misunderstood the definition of " dress tartan " . Only pointing out that the MacTavish Clan now has a " dress tartan " and that it can be used by dancers if desired .

You can rest easy Jock , I don't think there is a muddle here .

Why is it that I am not convinced? But we shall see.

In passing, I quite accept that tartan, certainly any tartan that I can think of, can and is used for a multitude of purposes and I am the first to admit that the ladies do look splendid in their tartan dancing outfits.

[MacRobert's Reply]

I remain confused about the definition of a “dress tartan”. Growing up in Scotland in the 50’s the term “dress tartan” in my family referred to this red Robertson, which was generally worn at formal events:



In contrast to this "hunting" tartan, which was generally for day wear:



However the Scottish Register of Tartans lists this as “Robertson dress Hunting”:



The registration notes say: "Scottish Tartans Society calls this a 'Dress Hunting'. Other suggestion is that it is a Dalgliesh 'Dancers' Fancy'. See also #539 (original Scottish Tartans Authority reference) which it closely resembles."

Now I am even more confused!:?

So my question is this: does the term “dress” when applied to a tartan refer to one generally worn for formal events or to a tartan with a white field or to a tartan primarily for highland dancers? Or is there general confusion that we just have to live with?

(PS I seem to have attached a thumbnail that I can't delete)

[M. A. C. Newsome]

MacRobert,

Calling a tartan a "dress" tartan does not imply that it is meant for formal wear. It generally refers to a tartan which has much more white in the design (though there are exceptions). Indeed, one could wear the Hunting Robertson to a formal event just as readily as the red Robertson tartan.

The STM has this handy little sheet available for download and photocopy which deals with these confusing tartan terms.
http://scottishtartans.org/downloads...eet_colors.pdf

[Tam Piperson]

See my comments in #12. This 1726 blanket was intended for domestic use and not to wear as an Erraisaid.

I see. It must have been this photo from a Scottish Tartans Museum display that gave me the impression that it was:

[David Thorpe]

Why is it that I am not convinced? But we shall see.

I believe that is a question which only you can answer, Jock. Best of luck with that.

There are many instances of Scots in the colonies and elsewhere dispersed doing things slightly differently than they are done in the Highlands. This very forum contains a plethora of discussions of examples. Due to many factors such as climatic and general cultural differences, this stands to reason. I am not convinced that these differences always constitute a "muddle", nor any particular problem.

I am no expert, to be sure, but I believe that here in the US, in at least some competitions, dancers are required to wear "dress" tartans, at least for any kind of serious consideration. I have no idea whether this rule applies at competitions in Scotland. The girls of our small clan have had to heretofore wear the "dress" tartan of another clan in order to compete. Our Chief has remedied that situation, with my gratitude.

With sincere respect for your expertise, experience, willingness to share them and tolerance for occasional disagreement, I will now hunt down my roll of duct tape and attempt to close this big can of worms.