Adjustments for ladies' kilts/kilt skirts apron/underapron sides

[The Wizard of BC]

Unless your lady likes the idea of wearing 4 pounds of wool around her waist may I comment that, in general, a man's kilts will often be made quite differently than a ladies Tartan pleated skirt.

A skirt for a lady will usually be made with lighter fabrics. 10oz if the most common.
Skirts will usually be made with less fabric. The pleats are usually shallower. Box pleats are quite common to reduce the amount of fabric.
Tartan skirts will also be made more like other skirts. This means that they usually do not have the internal construction elements found in a man's kilt.

Externally a skirt can open on the left or the right. This is a personal preference thing.
The size and shaping of the aprons can be the same as for a man. Again, personal preference. And what looks best on each person. Girls have different shapes than us guys.
I personally think box pleats are very flattering to the female shape. Box or knife is another personal preference thing.

A man's kilt is a very complex garment. A ladies Tartan pleated skirt is usually made following the pattern of other skirts.

[Michael A]

Unless your lady likes the idea of wearing 4 pounds of wool around her waist may I comment that, in general, a man's kilts will often be made quite differently than a ladies Tartan pleated skirt.

A skirt for a lady will usually be made with lighter fabrics. 10oz if the most common.
Skirts will usually be made with less fabric. The pleats are usually shallower. Box pleats are quite common to reduce the amount of fabric.
Tartan skirts will also be made more like other skirts. This means that they usually do not have the internal construction elements found in a man's kilt.

Externally a skirt can open on the left or the right. This is a personal preference thing.
The size and shaping of the aprons can be the same as for a man. Again, personal preference. And what looks best on each person. Girls have different shapes than us guys.
I personally think box pleats are very flattering to the female shape. Box or knife is another personal preference thing.

A man's kilt is a very complex garment. A ladies Tartan pleated skirt is usually made following the pattern of other skirts.

I bought 11Oz fabric (with selvedge) for my daughters but the tartans my wife wanted were not available in that weight, so I got 13Oz for her. She wants a knife pleated skirt as she feels that box pleats make her look fat, accentuating her 27.5"/40" waist/seat ratio. Some of the short ladies' kilted skirts that Howie Nicholsby makes are her guide. I was going to use about 5 yards.

So in construction, the way the apron sits slightly forward (to make the triangular shape from the front) doesn't matter whether it emerges from a deep pleat or inverted pleat? Is that right?

[The Wizard of BC]

The deep pleat of a kilt serves two functions. It gives a little more fabric behind the apron allowing them to drop between the legs naturally.
It also allows the sides of the apron to fall correctly. You can usually see a poorly made deep pleat in aprons that gape open at the bottom.

A Reverse pleat is just another deep pleat on the opposite side where the pleats are in the other direction.

So yes, if you make the skirt like a kilt you have both deep and reverse pleats. These will be just like their name implies - deeper than a normal pleat. How much deeper you ask? Well, that depends on the kiltmaker, and the layout of the aprons.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "the apron sits slightly forward". The apron should fall straight down from the top of the kilt in the front. The side edges should fall straight down and be aligned with the pleats.

[Dollander]

Okay, based on numerous photographss of kilted skirts I've seen, and one in my possession, it would seem typical for the knife pleats to go in the same direction as on a men's kilt. So if the apron opens on the left instead of the right, the reverse pleat is at the edge of the outer apron. As for a deeper pleat on the other end, well, that's harder to discern from photos, and the inner apron edge on the PV mini kilt from Scotweb that I have is no deeper than the other pleats.

And like Steve said, they tend to be structured much more simply than actual kilts. So with less fabric, pleating to the sett is not typically an option. Here's a kilted skirt (or I suppose a cilted sgert, since it's a Welsh tartan ) that I made based on the above-mentioned mini kilt:



You can see the reverse pleat in the first pic. And while at first glance it may appear to be pleated to the sett, note on the apron how the red-striped burgundy band is bordered by the smaller red stripes while the blue-striped one is bordered by the smaller black bands, but it's the other way around on the pleated portion. I also had to add darts to the upper apron, since too much of the sett would've been lost if I'd just tapered the edges naturally; indeed, perhaps the greatest challenge in making kilts for women (or in my case, dolls*) is preserving the pattern on the fell with the more pronounced taper of a typical female form.





* In case you didn't figure it out already, my username is a portmanteau of "doll" and "Highlander".

[Michael A]

By "sits slightly forward", I mean that instead of curling around towards the back, a viewer from the front can see the outline of the apron, since the deep pleat opens up slightly especially when moving.

So from both responses, I gather that the deep pleat and inverted pleat must therefore be on the same side with respect to the apron as they are for a gent's kilt. That is, the entire construction of the kilt must be reversed, rather than just putting the buckle hole and fringe on opposite sides. Is that correct? Or does it not matter if the deep pleat stays on the left (the apron) and the inverted on the right (the underapron).

[Dollander]

Like I said, the ones I've seen tend to have the reverse pleat on the outer apron...so yes, as if the fringe and buckle hole were reversed but the basic design is otherwise the same. Of course, there's no hard-and-fast rules, and even less so with kilted skirts, so you could do it whichever way you find more aesthetically pleasing. Six in one hand, half a dozen in the other...

[The Wizard of BC]

It is the apron shaping which keeps the apron edges parallel to the pleats.
If shaped well the apron edges should drape naturally around the sides of the legs. The apron edges should hang straight down and not gape open.

On a skirt that opens on the left. There is no left side deep pleat. The underapron is the deep pleat. On the right the apron itself becomes the reverse and it does have a deep pleat.

[Pleater]

My knowledge of kilts is, I suspect, coloured by the impact of the two world wars here in the UK. Possibly other people were influenced too

There was rationing of fabrics and clothing.
As the years wore on and garments wore out there was a real shortage of warm sturdy garments. Women used anything they could find to convert into garments, clothes rescued from dressing up boxes, amateur dramatic costumes - and there were kilts. As a kilt with the pleats cut out would not be of much use if taken apart, most were probably worn as they were.

I had kilts as a child, and they were fastened on the right - but that was considered normal.

[Michael A]

Here is the kilt I made for my wife. I took three inches off the top (including making a 1 inch rather than 2 inch rise) and two inches off the knee. It was a challenge to pleat, as the circumference around the iliac crests was 35 inches, with a 41 seat. Her natural waist is 27 inches (but I was ripping it to the 35 inch mark). I have since added another 1/2 inch to the flare on the left side of the apron and re-pressed, as it was kicking out too much.

It worked out okay but in future I would use either 11Oz Strathmore (like I did for the kids) or if 13Oz, the smoother House of Edgar rather than Strathmore. I had originally tried to order 11Oz Sutherland but that was back ordered, so she settled for a different grandmother's tartan (Buchanan, from the Cranna family) in the only fabric I could get. I really don't like the way 13Oz Strathmore fights back, as it were.






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[Balaamsass51]

FWIW. At several highland games, where we run the COSCA/STA tent, we have had the opportunity to speak with more than one clan chief from Scotland on their first visit to America. They have told us they they were puzzled/not pleased with seeing women in kilts instead of skirts. Flapped on the right and not the leftt. We have explained to them that we are just happy that they are doing something to show Scottish influence.

Personally I think that having a man wear a kilt flapped on the left or having a women wearing a tartan skirt flapped on the right is cross-dressing and should be avoided. I realize that this is America and you cannot make anyone do anything. Further it is my opinion that it is just pure cussed laziness selling kilts to women avoiding expenses occurred in manufacturing. Easier for a vendor at a games to sell everyone a kilt than make a different product.