Jacket search

[sydnie7]

Our military "patrol uniform" jackets attach at the neck, and the shirt worn under was collarless. It an earlier time all shirts had no collar till you decided to attach it as MoR has pointed out "It is possible that the boys weren't wearing "collar and tie" and so the jacket was closed to disguise this fact.".

Frank

I understand what MoR was saying, which that it was an ordinary Argyll jacket buttoned at the collar. I was pointing out that the Argyll jackets I see today have a collar, which seems to be absent from this picture, as well as a lower button/buttonhole, also apparently absent.

My opinion, FWIW, is that this jacket is deliberately styled to be buttoned as shown. But you know what they say about opinions.. .

[Skipper1]

Hi - Many thanks to Chaesm for uploading the photo. And many thanks for the comments. I tend to think the jacket is not an Argyll with the collar across - the cut away seems too wide and I don't see any button holes furhter down. I agree that it appears they are wearing buttonless shirts - it was common even in 1911 when the photo was apperently taken. From left to right they are John, Madge, Wee Hugh, Rose and Patrick, born of Hugh Doherty and Isabel MacNeil. Hugh was the son of Patrick from Granard, Ireland; Isabel, I am afraid, I have no genealogical info other than she was from Tangasdale Barra. Perhaps the irish comes out in the fact that the kilts appear to be a solid colour. (Though it is hard to tell from the photo.)

There is a tailor just down the road. I will show the photo to her and see what she thinks. I'll let you all know how it turns out.

[Highland Logan]

I understand what MoR was saying, which that it was an ordinary Argyll jacket buttoned at the collar. I was pointing out that the Argyll jackets I see today have a collar, which seems to be absent from this picture, as well as a lower button/buttonhole, also apparently absent.

My opinion, FWIW, is that this jacket is deliberately styled to be buttoned as shown. But you know what they say about opinions.. .

Sorry maybe I wasn't clear. I was refering to you shirt question. As to the jacket issue our patrols had a mandarin collar with a metal clip inside the collar. Those in the picture seemed to be buttoned but built on a turn of the century style millitary patteren.

Frank

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

If you turn up the collar of a jacket, the lapels fold across your chest. With a properly made jacket (like they used to make up until the 1950s) you would then be able to button the left lapel to the button on the back of the right lapel. I do this all the time when driving with the top down on my motor if the weather unexpectedly turns chilly.

At the time the photo was taken kilt jackets were styled with a more open, or cut away front, with the jacket buttoning much higher than is now the fashion. Since a gentleman wore a waistcoat this was not terribly uncomfortable, even in chilly weather. If my blasted scanner wasn't down I'd show you a photo taken c. 1910-1914 of a gentleman wearing virtually the same jacket as the boys-- Argyll cuffs, epaulettes and all. Those of you who have a copy of "THE KILT A Manual Of Scottish National Dress" will find this photo opposite page 36.

If you look closely at the photo of the children you will see the turn back cuffs of the Argyll jacket, epaulettes, and on the boy to the left of the photo, what looks suspiciously like a button hole at the mid-point of the jacket. I suspect, as alluded to previously, that if the boys had been wearing collars and ties the jackets would not have been buttoned at the neck, and there would have been no confusion as to the style of the jackets they are wearing.

[Bugbear]

If you turn up the collar of a jacket, the lapels fold across your chest. With a properly made jacket (like they used to make up until the 1950s) you would then be able to button the left lapel to the button on the back of the right lapel. I do this all the time when driving with the top down on my motor if the weather unexpectedly turns chilly.

At the time the photo was taken kilt jackets were styled with a more open, or cut away front, with the jacket buttoning much higher than is now the fashion. Since a gentleman wore a waistcoat this was not terribly uncomfortable, even in chilly weather. If my blasted scanner wasn't down I'd show you a photo taken c. 1910-1914 of a gentleman wearing virtually the same jacket as the boys-- Argyll cuffs, epaulettes and all. Those of you who have a copy of "THE KILT A Manual Of Scottish National Dress" will find this photo opposite page 36.

If you look closely at the photo of the children you will see the turn back cuffs of the Argyll jacket, epaulettes, and on the boy to the left of the photo, what looks suspiciously like a button hole at the mid-point of the jacket. I suspect, as alluded to previously, that if the boy's had been wearing collars and ties the jackets would not have been buttoned at the neck, and there would have been no confusion as to the style of the jackets they are wearing.

I wish you luck with your scanner, MacMillan of Rathdown, however, your discription was very clear to me. Thank you.

I have wondered when the lapells and collars of jackets became only ornimental, but never realized the better ones still are functional.

Also, in trying to figure out how to make the cutaway on my own jacket, I looked at how many different curves might look. I did notice that a high button and shorter lapell could result in a useable curve. It's crazy to try to restructure an existing lapell to make it shorter, though.

[Skipper1]

Well - that seems to solve the puzzle. I guess the next step for me, given I like the style so much, is to find a tailor who can make the right changes to an Argyll style jacket to reflect this pattern. And a vest to match.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

You might try Kinloch Anderson in Edinburgh (actually they are in Leith) or Costello & Sons in Ilford (North London). Costello's are military tailors and theatrical costumers, and their work is absolutely first class, as is that of Kinloch Anderson (both do work for the Royal Household and members of the Royal Family). I think you'll find having something tailored from scratch will produce a much better result than trying to have something altered. You might also ask Kevin Kinney (he's a member of the forum) to give it a shot, as he is reputed to be a good tailor.

[castledangerous]

These boyos are wearing a similar style, albeit with collars showing

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

These boyos are wearing a similar style, albeit with collars showing

Great picture! Is that from "The Book of the Club of the True Highlnder," by any chance?

[Bugbear]

Definatly have the jacket made from scratch by a tailor who makes Argyle jackets. The wider curve isn't any big deal, but like I said, those lapells have a lot of unseen things inside that make them roll over properly, and it is always best to leave them alone in an alteration.
Good luck.