What would the Victorians think?

[davidlpope]

[/QUOTE]

Based on the way the pleats look to me, the gentleman on the left is wearing a box-pleat...

Cordially,

David

[Phil]

I think Jock's outfit is an excellent example of traditional daywear and shows how little the style has changed in over 100 years. There are, of course, differences - a more comfortable shirt collar, slightly different cut to the jacket and waistcoat and the most obvious one - no hat!
What is interesting from the pictures posted, however, is the sheer variety of the Victorians' dress which indicates that there was actually a great deal less conformity then than there is now. Where we see almost identical dress, such as in the photo at the fishing lodge, I am sure they are probably all the product of Saville Row tailors whose style has been repeated amongst them as a result. If we come to the present day and Prince Charles who is illustrated in another thread, we can see the same timeless form of dress (some would call it dated) which is still the trademark of Saville Row bespoke tailors.

[Bugbear]

Yes, I have noticed that having a variety of cuts and approaches to jackets or accessories, from daywear up to even white tie attire, is commen in Highland attire. I think, looking at it as an outsider, it is part of the tradition of Highland attire. That's not to say that there aren't boundries.

It's been interesting learning about the different options in traditional Highland attire over the last several months.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

If you look closely these gentlemen (all servants on the Balmoral Estate) are identically dressed-- in fact, elsewhere in this thread there is a photo of John Brown and he, too, is dressed exactly like these men. Given the length of their jackets I suspect that they are wearing their "estate tweeds"-- suits made up by a local tailor and supplied to the staff (as part of their wages) by their employer-- but with kilts substituted for trousers. When you compare this photo to the one showing a gaggle of assorted royals and gentry, it is obvious that the "ghillies" attire has as much to do with identifying them, at a glace, as servants as it does with Highland fashion.

Matt's point about "intent" is excellent, especially if coupled to DWII's observations on affectation of dress. In my opinion this bit of "dandyism" is what traditional Highland attire is all about-- or at least what it should be all about. As Phil pointed out, there is far more conformity today than a century ago. It would seem as if style has been ground under the wheels of Blake's "dark satanic mills", dooming most men to servant's livery.

[Ancienne Alliance]

In my opinion this bit of "dandyism" is what traditional Highland attire is all about-- or at least what it should be all about.

Oui Monsieur !

I like the idea of a rustic dandy .


Best,

Robert

[Phil]

If you look closely these gentlemen (all servants on the Balmoral Estate) are identically dressed-- in fact, elsewhere in this thread there is a photo of John Brown and he, too, is dressed exactly like these men. Given the length of their jackets I suspect that they are wearing their "estate tweeds"-- suits made up by a local tailor and supplied to the staff (as part of their wages) by their employer-- but with kilts substituted for trousers.

Actually Balmoral tweeds are tailored somewhere in England (don't remember exactly where) but it would have been nice to give the business to someone locally. The same, unfortunately, goes for much other work where contractors are brought in from down south, builders, security consultants etc.. Sadly I'm afraid it is all symptomatic of so much in this country that everything is focussed on where the Head Office is which almost always translates to the London area. It is as if work in Texas had to be supervised from Washington using businesses, materials and workpeople from there. Here I am simply stating facts not grinding any axes but you can begin to imagine how resentment begins and festers.

[Old Hippie]

What is interesting from the pictures posted, however, is the sheer variety of the Victorians' dress which indicates that there was actually a great deal less conformity then than there is now.

One thing I like about photographic documentation versus painted portraiture when establishing "how it was done" is that with portraiture there is always a degree of uncertainty about how the artist translated what they were seeing into the picture.

Most of us can spot the differences between knife pleats, box pleats and Reverse Kingussie (for instance), but a portrait painter may or may not have portrayed it accurately.

More specifically to Phil's comment, that's very insightful! The farther we are -- geographically, in time, or culturally -- from "how it was done," the fewer examples we have to draw upon to determine what's "right." Seeing these old photographs (and the coloured cuts that were done by one familiar with the topic) definitely opens up a lot of interesting discussions about how it's done now.

:ootd:

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Actually Balmoral tweeds are tailored somewhere in England (don't remember exactly where) but it would have been nice to give the business to someone locally. The same, unfortunately, goes for much other work where contractors are brought in from down south, builders, security consultants etc.. Sadly I'm afraid it is all symptomatic of so much in this country that everything is focussed on where the Head Office is which almost always translates to the London area. It is as if work in Texas had to be supervised from Washington using businesses, materials and workpeople from there. Here I am simply stating facts not grinding any axes but you can begin to imagine how resentment begins and festers.

Tell me about it! As a veteran of the "BBC Scotland vs. London and the Six Home Counties" wars I couldn't agree more. Probably reason #283 that I moved to the USA...

I'm surprised to learn that the estate workers at Balmoral have their tweeds cut in London-- it must be a bear getting everyone down to the City for a fitting. I wonder if this is a recent thing, say since the mid 70s or so when the last decent tailors in the Highlands shuttered their shops for the last time.

Actually, having said this, I seem to recall Mr. Costello (of Costello and Son in Ilford, North London) saying he traveled up to Scotland to fit members of the Royal Household up there, so perhaps he did the Estate tweeds?

[Jock Scot]

Tell me about it! As a veteran of the "BBC Scotland vs. London and the Six Home Counties" wars I couldn't agree more. Probably reason #283 that I moved to the USA...

I'm surprised to learn that the estate workers at Balmoral have their tweeds cut in London-- it must be a bear getting everyone down to the City for a fitting. I wonder if this is a recent thing, say since the mid 70s or so when the last decent tailors in the Highlands shuttered their shops for the last time.

Actually, having said this, I seem to recall Mr. Costello (of Costello and Son in Ilford, North London) saying he traveled up to Scotland to fit members of the Royal Household up there, so perhaps he did the Estate tweeds?

I have no idea where the men of the Balmoral Estate have their suits made, but " Haggarts of Aberfeldy" still make tweed and do make shooting suits in "Estate tweed" for many(most?) estates that require them, throughout the UK. I understand that Haggarts do travel to various estates, but the last time I visited them, to pick up new cap, there were 16 stalkers and gamekeepers being measured up for their suits------all from the same estate.

[BoldHighlander]

One thing I like about photographic documentation versus painted portraiture when establishing "how it was done" is that with portraiture there is always a degree of uncertainty about how the artist translated what they were seeing into the picture.

Most of us can spot the differences between knife pleats, box pleats and Reverse Kingussie (for instance), but a portrait painter may or may not have portrayed it accurately.

More specifically to Phil's comment, that's very insightful! The farther we are -- geographically, in time, or culturally -- from "how it was done," the fewer examples we have to draw upon to determine what's "right." Seeing these old photographs (and the coloured cuts that were done by one familiar with the topic) definitely opens up a lot of interesting discussions about how it's done now.

:ootd:

I had written about the artist, Kenneth MacLeay in other posts before, but in short he was commissioned in 1869 by Queen Victoria to paint a series of 31 paintings of her Highland retainers at Balmoral. These men were selected by the Chiefs themselves. The works created quite a sensation in their own time, and were published in book form in 1870.

For more on the authenticity of said paintings, I'd direct you to this quote on the subject by Matt Newsome (found at: Kenneth MacLeay

First, the MacLeay prints should not be considered in the same category as the MacIan prints. (For those unfamiliar with the portraits painted by Kenneth MacLeay, click here. The MacIan prints are very famous, but if you are not familiar with them, either, you can see them here.)

Robert MacIan attempted to depict Highland dress from various different time periods and various walks of life. Generally, the further back in time from the 1840s when he made these portraits, the less accurate and more fanciful his depictions are. Not that they are not great pictures, but they simply cannot be relied upon for accurate information on Historic Highland Dress.

MacLeay, on the other hand, was commissioned to make his series of portraits in 1870 and depicts actual contemporary dress -- he was working with real models, and his attention to detail is fantastic. We have every reason to assume that he accurately depicted what his models were in fact wearing. So I would say his work is very useful for telling us what was worn in Highland Dress in 1870.

And looking at his work, one does find hair sporrans being worn both formally and casually.

Somewhere I have a wonderful print of William MacDuff (gameskeeper) in his everyday wear, as depicted by MacLeay, but cannot locate the scan at this time. So instead I'll direct you to this thread: William MacDuff

Enjoy!