traditional vs. classic

[OC Richard]

In highland apparel and style, what is truly classic and what is traditional? Are they the same or different?

What are the sources and influences of your concept of classic?

Great questions! Because I've discovered that over the years, as my sources have broadened, I've had to reevaluate some of my concepts.

My first source was a catalogue from a Highland Dress outfitter which I got around 1974. Ooooh how I gazed at those B&W photos of all the different styles of sporrans, different types of jackets (Montrose, Regulation, tweed day, and many more), and all the old-fashioned types of kilt pins etc etc.

At that time 'casual kilts' and all the neo-Celtic and neo-Culloden etc etc stuff didn't exist and the 'traditional' modes of Highland Dress held sway: Day Dress, Evening Dress, and military-style dress each with its proprietary shoes, hose, sporran, jacket, and headgear. It just didn't do to mix things up!

I followed suit and had several Highland Dress outfits which respected those traditional modes:





I got really into Highland Dress and got every book I could on the subject including such classics as Old Irish and Highland Dress etc.

Then... all of my preconceptions about the "right" and the "wrong" about Highland Dress were blown away when I got a copy of The Highlanders of Scotland, fifty-odd extremely detailed portraits of men in Highland Dress painted in the 1860's. Highland Dress had so much more vitality, variety, and plasticity then! How dull and monollithic our modern dress looks by comparison!



More recently I've begun collecting a large number of vintage (c1860 to c1930) photos of men in Highland Dress. These, combined with The Highlanders of Scotland, made me realise that the set-in-stone Modes of Highland Dress that I came to know in the 1970's didn't really exist until, it seems, after WWI.







In the end my current "eye" for what's traditional/classic is formed by those four influences: "tradtitional Highland Dress" as it was known in the 1970's, books on the history of Highland Dress, The Highlanders of Scotland, and vintage photos.

[cavscout]

What a great picture. I like this look. I'd prefer a bit more sag in the plaid across the chest and less hanging down in front, but in general, this looks great to me. Function and style. The bottom of the kilt looks interesting also. Appears to be a solid with a design along the bottom. Very unique photo. Thanks for posting.

[MacLowlife]

I think this is a great example of words that seem to mean a lot, but may not mean much. Granted, TRADITIONAL means made (or styled) after a tradition, i.e., the way it has been done. Classic, though, can mean just about anything. If you like to wear the kilt in a traditional way, ( or for that matter, modern men's Saxon clothing ) you probably have a fairly good idea of a "canon" of items and looks that fit into your notion of traditional. However, someone might come along with an item that is not within that canon and will refer to it as "classic" as in "A classic Nehru jacket" or "A classic bell bottomed disco suit" or even "a classic white rabbit sporran". Can we argue about whether or not the item is "classic"? Sure. Will we get anywhere? Probably not.

Classical refers to the glories of ancient Rome and Greece, as exemplified by columns, etc. Classic is what they call Coca -Cola with vanilla in it, as oopsed to the old "New" Coke.

This kind of wondering has led to the people on another forum having acronyms such as TNSIL, which means "Traditional Natural Shoulder Ivy League" since someone already pointed out that padded shoulders are just as traditional in their own neighborhood as the natural shoulder models are in theirs.

I was surprised to learn how new this particular forum is- It would appear the Traditional forum was created in February 2004, while some part of XMarks dates back to 2003. That was before my time and I would be pleased to hear from my elders. You can search back, though, to the earliest posts in this forum, which is pretty cool.

But I was distracted for a minute, there. While we are throwing around terms like classic and traditional, I would like to suggest that we bear in mind that things like style and fashion do evolve. Military uniforms have changed. Western formal wear has changed. Business suits have changed, even riding clothes have changed-whatever you ride.* If you are familiar with these various kinds of dress, you may have more refined ideas about them than a person who is outside looking in. Sure, you can have your 3 piece suit tailored exactly like your grandfather's, but chances are, if you go to Brooks Brothers or a Savile Row tailor, when you ask for a "traditional" suit, it will be subtly different from the one you would have gotten even 50 years ago.

You don't see people talking about lapel width much here, or collar size, or tie width. Now and then, someone will notice how wide kilt belts are getting, but that is about it. Yet those things are always slowly changing and, yes, so are various aspects of the "traditional" way to wear a kilt. It is a fine thing to hearken back to MacLeay's watercolors, or to 18th century clan chief portraits, or even to great photographs of various kilt-wearing luminaries through time, but to pattern one's kilt kit after the way it was worn 150 years ago is more historical than traditional, in my humble low-rent opinion.

Saxon men wore bell-bottomed trousers in the 1920s throughout much of the western world . And they wore them in the 1970s. And I am sure some guy is wearing them right now. Are they traditional? Not especially. You might argue that they are traditional for sailors, but when is the last time any government issued them to their navy?

Drawing a line in the sand and saying "here is the tradition- what came before was premature and what came after was wrong" is inviting frustration, if not ridicule. I agree with the wise poster who pointed out that there is nothing much traditional about "Jacobite" shirts, for instance, though a person who has worn tee shirts all of his or her life might be excused for thinking they are historical.

I have run on long enough. * Ever since they stopped breeding mammoths, I have had to make do with a horse. Time to go perm his hair for that traditional look.

[creagdhubh]

What a great picture. I like this look. I'd prefer a bit more sag in the plaid across the chest and less hanging down in front, but in general, this looks great to me. Function and style. The bottom of the kilt looks interesting also. Appears to be a solid with a design along the bottom. Very unique photo. Thanks for posting.

Wow, I love the way you think! Your Highland attire looks absolutely amazing and is very much like my own style. I agree with everything you have said. I am very much a traditionalist and despise the utilikilts, leather kilts, kilts that match pinstripe suit blazers, etc. I think there is a lot of rubbish out there in terms of what lads are wearing. The worst thing thaat someone could do is to take Highland dress and completely ruin it by making it 'too' modern. Now what do I mean by that? Of course we live in a modern world, and people have their own likes and dislikes when it comes to wearing the Garb of the old Gaul. I have no problem with personal views of how someone chooses to wear Highland dress, however, I do feel that there are so many better representations and styles available, veruses what some people are wearing these days. I like how you did your research, expecially looking at Macleay's 'Highlanders of Scotland.' Yes, these are prints from the 19-century, however they are wonderful representations of Highland dress-more specifcally for evening or formal wear inspiration. Now, of course I wouldnt show up to a ball with flintlock pistols, a broadsword, and a targe slung on my back, yet everything else looks absolutely fabulous! The tartan waistcoats, the ornate hair sporrans (sporan molach), the dirks, the variations in doublets, the bonnets with plant badges, everything looks great!

I am also a firm supporter of looking at how your clan chief dresses. Not all clans have current chiefs, and some may be female, however my clan chief, Sir William Alan Macpherson of Cluny and Blairgowrie, whom my wife and I have had the pleasure of meeting many times and have been to his lovely home, Newton Castle in Blairgowrie, Perthshire many times as well, is a perfect example of traditional Highland attire. He tends to wear check shirts of varying colors, with regimental stripe neckties, or country ties made of wool with ducks or grouse patterns on them, tweed jackets of varying tweeds or in the plain colors with our without a waistcoat for daywear. He loves to wear his Scottish wildcat sporran, which of course is suitable for any type of formality, and for his evening attire he prefers the regulation doublet with an old hair sporran that his father and former Macpherson chiefs passed down to him-complete with buckle brogues and argyll hose to match his dress Macpherson kilt. Now of course, every person will have their own style and preferences on how to wear their Highland attire, I am not saying that is wrong. There is many degrees of latitude with how one puts together their ensemble and I love to see the different fashions, however, I do believe that there are many lads out there that just haven't discovered those latitudes. ?Look at how HRH Prince Charles wears his attire, look at P/M Gordon Walker, look at Macleay's book, 'The Highlanders of Scotland,' look at old photos of Highlanders from the nineteenth century and into the twentieth century. Many of these old photos and works of art can inspire, motivate, and give a plethora of knowledge to those lads who are eager for more! I love it!!!

[creagdhubh]

Great questions! Because I've discovered that over the years, as my sources have broadened, I've had to reevaluate some of my concepts.

My first source was a catalogue from a Highland Dress outfitter which I got around 1974. Ooooh how I gazed at those B&W photos of all the different styles of sporrans, different types of jackets (Montrose, Regulation, tweed day, and many more), and all the old-fashioned types of kilt pins etc etc.

At that time 'casual kilts' and all the neo-Celtic and neo-Culloden etc etc stuff didn't exist and the 'traditional' modes of Highland Dress held sway: Day Dress, Evening Dress, and military-style dress each with its proprietary shoes, hose, sporran, jacket, and headgear. It just didn't do to mix things up!

I followed suit and had several Highland Dress outfits which respected those traditional modes:





I got really into Highland Dress and got every book I could on the subject including such classics as Old Irish and Highland Dress etc.

Then... all of my preconceptions about the "right" and the "wrong" about Highland Dress were blown away when I got a copy of The Highlanders of Scotland, fifty-odd extremely detailed portraits of men in Highland Dress painted in the 1860's. Highland Dress had so much more vitality, variety, and plasticity then! How dull and monollithic our modern dress looks by comparison!



More recently I've begun collecting a large number of vintage (c1860 to c1930) photos of men in Highland Dress. These, combined with The Highlanders of Scotland, made me realise that the set-in-stone Modes of Highland Dress that I came to know in the 1970's didn't really exist until, it seems, after WWI.







In the end my current "eye" for what's traditional/classic is formed by those four influences: "tradtitional Highland Dress" as it was known in the 1970's, books on the history of Highland Dress, The Highlanders of Scotland, and vintage photos.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU AND FEEL EACTLY THE SAME WAY!!! I too have a copy of Macleay's 'The Highlanders of Scotland,' and am meticulous when it comes to reserach and what I purchase for my Highland dress wardrobe. I am currently in the process of purchasing tweed argyll jackets that have horizontal and vertical lines of color, as well as estate style tweed jackets to mix and match with my many tattersall shirts and regimental neckties. It's so much fun!