traditional vs. classic

[HeathBar]

Traditional vs. Classic

What I see as traditional are the materials used in the making of kilts, jackets, etc...
What I see as classic is the style in which these garments are made.

100% worsted wool in a tartan is what is traditional for kilts. The 8yd, hand stitched, knife pleated kilt will always be classic style of kilt. Sure its not as old as other styles, but in its 150 odd year existance it has become the "standard". And I think that is what makes it classic.

For daywear jackets and waistcoats, tweed or other rough textured wools is traditional. The two button jacket with gauntlet cuffs and a five button waistcoat is classic.

For evening wear, fine woolens or velvet is traditional. The Regulation, Montrose, Kenmore, and Sherrifmuir are classic. Sorry, I just don't see the Argyll or PC as classic.

Frankly, when it comes to evening dress here in the US, most folks look like they stepped out of a Celtic Croft or Scottish Lion catalog. I think if we were to attend a ball in the Highlands, we would truely see what is traditional and classic.

[CMcG]

<snip>
My first source was a catalogue from a Highland Dress outfitter which I got around 1974. Ooooh how I gazed at those B&W photos of all the different styles of sporrans, different types of jackets (Montrose, Regulation, tweed day, and many more), and all the old-fashioned types of kilt pins etc etc.

<snip>

Frankly, when it comes to evening dress here in the US, most folks look like they stepped out of a Celtic Croft or Scottish Lion catalog. I think if we were to attend a ball in the Highlands, we would truely see what is traditional and classic.

This brings up an interesting issue, which is the influence of retailers and rentals on the perception of tradition...

[Semiomniscient]

This brings up an interesting issue, which is the influence of retailers and rentals on the perception of tradition...

Well since most of us depend on companies selling these wares and not professional tailors making our clothes to our specifications--we end up with what's available. And until there is a strong demand for otherwise, we won't see it much in catalogs.

For instance, I wear two evening jackets (Argyle): one is burgundy, the other is blue (and I don't mean navy blue). Every one else wears black (except for one gentleman who occasionally wears a dark bottle green). I got mine on ebay from different sellers from Scotland. One was a private seller, the other was a rental/hire business who were clearing stock. They're all traditional and classic though.

I don't think that so-called "kilt shirts" are traditional or classic. But they are discussed in this forum... They are generally accepted by the kilted-masses for daywear and eventually may be looked upon as "classic" daywear. (With fewer and fewer men wearing ties and the general "deformalizing" of society, this is a possibility.) But they certainly can never be looked upon as traditional. So... can they ever be seen as classic?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Well since most of us depend on companies selling these wares and not professional tailors making our clothes to our specifications--we end up with what's available. And until there is a strong demand for otherwise, we won't see it much in catalogs.

Fifty years ago or so most companies offered a nearly bewildering array of highland attire. I've a Frasier Ross catalog on my desk and it shows five different styles of evening wear jacket-- today you are lucky to find a shop offering much more than a Prince Charlie coatee. The same catalogue offers fourteen different sporrans, seven of which are civilian horsehair sporrans. In addition to a wide variety of self-coloured hose (none of which were white, off-white, ecru, or creme) they offered their customers five different styles of "dress hose" ranging from a simple "check top hose" to full tartan as well as diced hose.

So what happened? Why don't stores offer the selection they once did?

Probably because most of their customers are too cheap to buy quality products. The few Highland outfitters that do offer a good selection-- stores like Kinloch Anderson, or MacKenzie Frain-- survive only because discerning customers seek them out. The few firms that continue to offer bespoke tailoring-- such as Stewart Christie-- offer their services at prices that would give the average "Mr. Geoffrey" customer a nose bleed, and would produce cardiac arrest in one of the Gold Brothers shops.

The bottom line, in my estimation, is that frankly, my dear, most folks don't give a damn about how they look, and are totally focused on price. It really comes down to the polar opposites of PRIDE and SHAME:

PRIDE = Perfect Results In Dressing Elegantly

while

SHAME = Sustained Half Arsed Minimal Efforts.

[OC Richard]

Fifty years ago or so most companies offered a nearly bewildering array of highland attire. I've a Frasier Ross catalog on my desk and it shows five different styles of evening wear jacket-- today you are lucky to find a shop offering much more than a Prince Charlie coatee.

So true! When I first got into Highland Dress in the 1970's that first catalogue had a number of different Evening Dress jackets, the Prince Charlie being only one of several. I recall attending formal events in the late 70's and early 80's and seeing all of those being worn. And, these jackets were worn with plaids, dirks, tartan hose, and buckled brogues in the main. My own look was a claret velvet Montrose doublet (which I don't seem to have a photo of).

Nowadays everyone is in Prince Charlies with white hose. Ugghhhh...

I wonder it the Kilt Hire industry has had anything to do with this? Certainly the Prince Charlie has become a mass-produced item in Scotland and since you can get Prince Charlies off-the-peg fairly cheaply (and ex-hire ones even more cheaply) it's easy to see why most men go with them.

[Panache]

MoR,

If you take a broader view of all men's Western fashion (from the 1960's onward) I should think that the trend has been toward simpler, more casual, and more standardized garb for men. Generally thinking men are supposed to look good without really standing out in their clothes. In my life most of the fellows I know wear things that blend in with what everyone else is wearing and "dress up" only when required to. Being "Dressed up" is not something they enjoy on the whole and Heaven forbid they might look like they spend too much time or effort on their appearance.

Why even here on the Internet (though not on XMTS) among people that enjoy kilts and highland attire I have been mocked as a fop by some. Why? Because if you stand out too much in your manner of dress, well then it must mean that you are effeminate,a sissy, or some other such nonsense.

For many who don the kilt, the simple act of putting on a skirt and wearing it out in public is a pretty risky thing. They don't want to stand out anymore than that! Therefore options for individuality disappear and highland formal wear becomes something of a uniform. Now I do think that most fellows do enjoy their highland finery when they don their Prince Charlie Coatee and such, but they are also reassured that it is a "safe" look. This is to say that they know that they will fit in with what everyone else is wearing. For a lot of men, no matter what the type of dress that is all they want of their attire.

I'm sure price has its place in the equation as well, but I think that the general shift in fashion away from anything that makes a fellow stand out in the crowd has more to do with it.

Cheers

Jamie

Order of the Dandelion, Order of the Gin and Tonic, Order of the Tartan Peacock

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

MoR,

Generally thinking men are supposed to look good without really standing out in their clothes.

Absolutely-- that's why dressing like a burlesque comic is to be avoided at all costs. Conservative dress in style and colour is always the best way to go.

In my life most of the fellows I know wear things that blend in with what everyone else is wearing and "dress up" only when required to. Being "Dressed up" is not something they enjoy on the whole and Heaven forbid they might look like they spend too much time or effort on their appearance.

I think there is a difference between sloppy and casual dressing, and that those who are sloppy dressers are just plain lazy. Since it takes no more physical effort to put on a polo shirt than a tee shirt, or to put on coloured socks than white socks, or to draw on slacks rather than sweat pants, the only two possible excuses for not being casually well-dressed are ignorance or laziness. The same applies to when one dons a collar and tie...

For many who don the kilt, the simple act of putting on a skirt and wearing it out in public is a pretty risky thing. They don't want to stand out anymore than that! Therefore options for individuality disappear and highland formal wear becomes something of a uniform. Now I do think that most fellows do enjoy their highland finery when they don their Prince Charlie Coatee and such, but they are also reassured that it is a "safe" look. This is to say that they know that they will fit in with what everyone else is wearing. For a lot of men, no matter what the type of dress that is all they want of their attire.

I'm sure price has its place in the equation as well, but I think that the general shift in fashion away from anything that makes a fellow stand out in the crowd has more to do with it.

Cheers

Jamie

Order of the Dandelion, Order of the Gin and Tonic, Order of the Tartan Peacock

Jamie,

Choosing a Prince Charlie coatee over a dress Argyll, or any doublet, isn't done for reasons of sartorial safety-- to "blend in"-- it is done because the first time buyer inevitably has virtually zero options, other than (possibly) a choice of colours. It's like living in China in the 1960s-- "does sir want a grey, or gray, Mao jacket?" Of course no one stands out, they don't have the option to stand out, they have no choice to stand out, because they have little or no choice in what's on offer.

If you were to attend the annual tartan ball of the St. Andrew's Society of Washington DC dressed in your finest evening attire you wouldn't stand out, you'd blend in with all the other well-dressed gentlemen who would be wearing everything from the ubiquitously boring Prince Charlie coatee to bespoke velvet doublets that would cause Sandy to swoon. You would also be discretely approached by gentlemen in "Price" Charlie coatees quietly asking for an introduction to your tailor.

Yours in foppery and a well cut sleeve...

Scott

[kiltedsawyer]

Probably because most of their customers are too cheap to buy quality products. The few Highland outfitters that do offer a good selection-- stores like Kinloch Anderson, or MacKenzie Frain-- survive only because discerning customers seek them out. The few firms that continue to offer bespoke tailoring-- such as Stewart Christie-- offer their services at prices that would give the average "Mr. Geoffrey" customer a nose bleed, and would produce cardiac arrest in one of the Gold Brothers shops. The bottom line, in my estimation, is that frankly, my dear, most folks don't give a damn about how they look, and are totally focused on price. It really comes down to the polar opposites of PRIDE and SHAME: Efforts.

Yes, by all means! Perhaps highland attire should be sold only to those whose income surpasses a certain threshold. I'm sure that we could arrive at a figure if we put our minds to it. After all, we can't have the proletariat running around in kilts!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Yes, by all means! Perhaps highland attire should be sold only to those whose income surpasses a certain threshold. I'm sure that we could arrive at a figure if we put our minds to it. After all, we can't have the proletariat running around in kilts!

Comrade Kiltedsawyer: stop waiving your red flag, and turn off the recording of the Red Army Chorus singing "The International" for just a moment, or at least long enough to go back and re-read my post (that your have quoted out of context-- I knew there was a reason why I should have kept you on my "ignore list") as well as all of the other posts in this thread.

If you do, you will find nothing in there about rationing kilts to your beloved "proletariat". It's all about people in a free-market economy choosing to buy cheap crap rather than quality goods, and how that has reduced consumer choice in the high street.

Whether you like it or not, or agree with it or not, this "buy cheap" mind-set has a negative effect on the marketplace. Cheap PCs made in China (at a cost of US$8.00 each and sold in shops for under US$110.00) crowd out better made and more expensive PCs-- along with other styles of jackets-- with the result that there is less choice for the consumer. There may be more of a single item (of highly suspect quality) but there will be far less choice. Limiting choice based on a lack of availability of goods may have appealed to Marx and Mao-- and that's probably one of the reasons that the "proletariat" dumped their philosophies into the trash can of history-- but it is a bad thing for consumers.

Now, since this is supposed to be a forum about Traditional Highland Dress, rather than a discussion about free market economics, let me return this to something more on topic with this bit of advice for all you fellow travelers out there:

It is considered bad form to wear a Che Guevara tee-shirt with a kilt.

[mull]

There are a few references in this thread regarding earlier times when multiple jackets and civillian horsehair sporrans were available for formal wear. As someone new, I would love to see examples of what could or should be available as alternatives to the PC. Can anyone share?
Thanks,
Joe