Double-breasted jackets?

[KD Burke]

Well, I see little reason from refraining to call a spade a spade. The remarks weren't intended to be insulting; I was voicing a strident opinion. The jackets look cheap, and I think they look ugly.

Stridency of opinion is perfectly appropriate so long as one is willing to admit that opinions, regardless of how strident, are personal. Other folk will inevitably have equally strident, equally valid, and diametrically opposed opinions.

MoR has equally strident opinions. He obviously dislikes the jacket. However rather than simply labelling it as cheap and ugly, he has provided a careful analysis of why he dislikes it. For that reason, I will carefully consider his arguments. In the end, I may decide I disagree, but I will have the benefit of his opinion.

KD
:ootd:

[JSFMACLJR]

Stridency of opinion is perfectly appropriate so long as one is willing to admit that opinions, regardless of how strident, are personal. Other folk will inevitably have equally strident, equally valid, and diametrically opposed opinions.

MoR has equally strident opinions. He obviously dislikes the jacket. However rather than simply labelling it as cheap and ugly, he has provided a careful analysis of why he dislikes it. For that reason, I will carefully consider his arguments. In the end, I may decide I disagree, but I will have the benefit of his opinion.

KD
:ootd:

Well gosh, KD...so sorry I'm not the kind and gentle wordsmith that my friend MoR is. I didn't know that a "careful analysis" was called for here. Since I am recovering from cancer surgery and have been lying in bed for days on pain meds, I didn't feel up to the task of writing an essay.

I've never said that my opinions (OPINIONS) must be followed by all, but hey, it wouldn't be such a bad idea!

[davidlpope]

Also, as far as historical precedent goes, I doubt most people today would consider a jacket this cut or lenth remotely suitable highland attire, and yet John Brown obviously did.

These are the pictures that I've found of John Brown.




The jackets depicted in all three photos look to be variations of a kilt-length sack coat. Is there any evidence that John Brown wore a double-breasted shadbelly jacket with his kilt?

Cordially,

David

[Arlen]

These are the pictures that I've found of John Brown.
...
...
...
The jackets depicted in all three photos look to be variations of a kilt-length sack coat. Is there any evidence that John Brown wore a double-breasted shadbelly jacket with his kilt?

Cordially,

David

None that I know of. I was simply referring to the length of the coat. It is far longer than any of the Kilt Jackets or Doublets considered suitable today. That's all. The jackets depicted in the first two pictures are closer to the length of a regular modern 'suit' jacket thank a Kilt cut jacket.
All I intended to illustrate is that there have been many styles of Highland attire over the centuries and only relatively recently has it begun to be set in stone what is 'acceptable.'

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Stridency of opinion is perfectly appropriate so long as one is willing to admit that opinions, regardless of how strident, are personal. Other folk will inevitably have equally strident, equally valid, and diametrically opposed opinions.

MoR has equally strident opinions. He obviously dislikes the jacket. However rather than simply labelling it as cheap and ugly, he has provided a careful analysis of why he dislikes it. For that reason, I will carefully consider his arguments. In the end, I may decide I disagree, but I will have the benefit of his opinion.

KD
:ootd:

Actually, I don't dislike the jacket but I am of the opinion, for the reasons stated, that pairing it with a kilt would not result in the happiest of combinations. Someone with the build of a Balkan Sobranie cigarette, and wearing formal trousers, could probably get away with wearing this jacket. But the minute he donned a kilt... well, let's just say that I doubt it would look all that sharp.

[KD Burke]

I didn't know that a "careful analysis" was called for here.

The only conceivable reason for sharing an opinion is to convince or influence others. I merely point out that MoR was, by virtue of his analysis, more successful in his efforts at persuasion.

Since I am recovering from cancer surgery and have been lying in bed for days on pain meds, I didn't feel up to the task of writing an essay.

I am dismayed to learn of your illness and wish you a speedy recovery.

I've never said that my opinions (OPINIONS) must be followed by all, but hey, it wouldn't be such a bad idea!

I, too feel the world would be better remade in my image. Pehaps we can agree on that!

KD

:ootd:

[CMcG]

<snip>
CMcG, heed that inner voice.

I'm heeding, I'm heeding.

I bought the jacket because it seemed short enough in the waist to be worn with a kilt and because the fabric is nice. When I brought it home and tried it on with a kilt, something didn't seem right despite being of tall and slim build. I had hoped that a judicious alteration might turn it into a serviceable semi-formal jacket but I'm getting the impression that there's no salvaging this one...

Sorry KD Burke, I guess I can't help you with your search for a double-breasted, suitable-for-kilting jacket

[longhuntr74]

Deleted by poster.

[JSFMACLJR]

Not trying to be argumentative...but would like you to explain your comment a bit more. I, like others, am trying to learn. I value the opinions of those "in the know."

Are you saying this jacket posted above is a hand-me-down waiter's uniform? What draws you to that conclusion? Why do you think it unsuited for formal or highland dress?

I guess I'm having trouble seeing the difference. The message being preached on here by many is to avoid the "cookie cutter" PC look and be unique. Now we have a unique jacket and you've dismissed it as cheap and unsuited. I am genuinely interested in hearing why....in understanding the difference between custom, unique, and what you consider improper. The measure of proper cannot be "bespoke = good."

Well, I'll take a stab at this, but as has been pointed out, I'm not very convincing and fail to discuss things in a way that isn't polarizing.

First of all, I don' t know for certain that the jacket in question is a waiter's uniform. It looks like one to me. I believe it is unsuited for formal wear for several reasons:
1. Men wear dinner jackets for black tie events. These are made in the "normal" standard style of a sack coat (?). They may be single breasted or DB; they may have peak lapels, notch lapels, or a shawl collar. The lapels are of a different fabric from the body of the jacket: usually grosgrain or satin (this is one of the accepted, traditional indicators between a servant's jacket with no facings and that of a gentleman). The single breasted jackets should have a single button, but more modern cuts sometimes fasten with more.
2. Other forms of "accepted" evening dress for black tie are available. I call them "accepted" because they have stood the test of time. The best examples of this are smoking jackets, and the white mess jacket, which was popular in the 1920's and 30's. Of course this was the bane of Jeeve's existance, for Bertie Wooster took a shine on mess jackets. What makes the traditional white mess jacket "acceptable" and the black DB waiter's jacket unacceptable is history. The former has become an icon; the latter still is what it is.

You wrote: The message being preached on here by many is to avoid the "cookie cutter" PC look and be unique. Now we have a unique jacket and you've dismissed it as cheap and unsuited. I am genuinely interested in hearing why....in understanding the difference between custom, unique, and what you consider improper. The measure of proper cannot be "bespoke = good."

I see the confusion: Yes the jacket is unique and unlike the cookie cutter PC, so what gives? It is admirable, but this jacket has no history as an article of traditional Highland dress. I can find no examples that even remotely resemble it. At least the unique evening doublets I have admired and illustrated in the past on XMTS are considered traditional, with excellent pedigrees, and true to the basis of what has always been accepted by Highland gentlemen as part of their wardrobes. If one wishes to avoid the "cookie cutter PC look", there are options!
1. Don't purchase a PC coatee! Get a regulation doublet, a Sheriffmuir, a Montrose, a Kenmore, or even an Argyll jacket.
2. Think of getting it made in a colour other than black: navy, or green are two excellent choices.
3. Go with velvet. Now this is MY OPINION, but velvet looks so much nicer and absorbs light better, and has a more refined and elegant look contrasted with the tartan of the kilt in low light situations.
4. Think of getting different buttons, instead of the ubiquitous chrome diamonds one sees everywhere.
5. Save your pennies and buy the best you can afford. You will be rewarded by a jacket with a better fit, better fabric, better cut, and the possibility to add personal detailing.
6. Personal detailing? Cuff styles; epaulettes or no; coloured facings; pockets in flaps; buttonholes in lapels; breast pockets etc, etc.

The desire of the poster of the jacket in question should be lauded for thinking outside the box, for wanting something different. IT IS MY OPINION, though, that there are better options that are part of the tradition of "proper Highland attire" available. I consider Highland attire to be the most noble style of gentlemanly dress. Moves to take away some of the grandeur, some of the style, and some of the elegance of it just seems so sad to me.

[longhuntr74]

My hat is off to you sir....

Firstly, you responded to a post that I made, then deleted, because I didn't realize that there was more to the thread (I was on page 3 of 5 and thought it was the last page). After realizing that you had been beat up for not explaining your opinions and that the matter had already been addressed in great detail, I decided my post was superfluous and overkill...hence my deleting it.

Secondly, your answer to my post was superb, matter of fact, and truly helpful to myself (and I would guess others as well). I, of course, knew some of that info about formal wear...though I have to say that your statement about satin/grosgrain as the distinguishing factor between a gentleman and otherwise was a little tidbit I hadn't ever read or considered? I guess it depends on context as well...Argyll jackets don't have satin...but they are probably not to be considered "formal" attire either.

Thank you for you well composed and complete answer!!