Argyll Fans !

[skauwt]

my grandfather was in the 51st Highland Division he was captured as his group was ordered to stay put and defending the retreating lines needless to say he was a guest in the German pow camps for 5 years after Dunkirk and spent most of his time in Poland at stalag xxa

it was 4 years before my grandmother heard news he was still alive by hearing word from a local women whose husband was prisoner with him and managed to get a letter to them somehow
interesting information though it gives me a insight into how his company would have altered over time

[Lachlan09]

For further info, if this helps, the numbering of British divisions in WW1 seems illogical in some ways, with regular divisions, territorial divisions and New Army (Kitchener) divisions all mixed together. Also, Territorial divisions have higher numbers than wartime Kitchener divisions, despite being in existence longer. Why ?

Well, as of 1914, there were 6 numbered permanent Regular Army divisions in existence, numbered 1 - 6. These divisions, split in pairs into 3 Corps, formed the infantry element of the BEF. Further British regular units could be summoned from overseas if required and formed into further divisions. Meanwhile, the part-time volunteers had been formed into the Territorial Force, with battalions attached to the well-known country regiments where they were consecutively numbered. These TF battalions were grouped into un-numbered regional divisions (14 in all) such as Highland Division, Lowland Division, Northumbrian Division, 1st London Division, Welsh Division etc – but there was no TF organised in Ireland, due to risk of armed civil war between Republicans and Loyalists. The TF supported the regulars by being ready on mobilization to guard key locations in the UK and garrison overseas locations of the Empire as required. They were not expected to fight in Europe etc.

Meanwhile, Lord Kitchener (Sec of War), was, for a long time before the war, doubtful that Britain could hope for a short, limited war of a battle or two which would result peacefully in diplomatic negotiations. He was therefore planning an expansion of the regular army, to be brought into being in event of war. He, like most British generals, wrote off the 14 TF divisions as part-time amateurs with complex rules of engagement, suitable only for garrison work. So he by-passed them, intending to create a large wartime army of civilian volunteers directly, modeled on the Regular Army. This would be the New Army, also known as Kitchener’s Army, organised like the BEF as 6 infantry divisions of 3 brigades of 4 battalions per brigade, roughly 100,000 men. He wanted 3 such groups of 6 divisions, to be called K1, K2 and K3. Of course it would be some time before they could take the field.

When war came, Kitchener stretched out his arm on wall posters everywhere. Recruits flocked in. Meanwhile, the BEF regulars mobilized its 6 divisions and went off to France. The TF too were recruiting. They had waived their garrison only rights and wanted to fight, so they duplicated (later triplicated) their battalions into active units to go to war and those who voted to stay in the UK /garrison Empire.

As regular units were organized into divisions on return from abroad, the army’s list of infantry divisions expanded. 1st to 6th divisions were the pre-war BEF, the 7th and 8th Divs were formed from the first regulars to arrive from Empire, then K1 (New Army) took the next six divisions – 9th Scottish, 10th Irish, 11th Northern, 12th Eastern, 13th Western and 14th Light. Though Kitchener war volunteers, 9th to 13th were formed using the names of the 5 Regular regional home commands, whilst the 14th was a national division. 15th to 20th Divisions repeated the process (K2). However, K3 (21st to 26th Divs) gave up the regional idea and was organized on divisions of a mix of battalions from whatever UK regiments could fill them. Then the bulk of returning Regulars from further stations of Empire were organised as 27th, 28th and 29th Regular divisions.

Exceeding expectations , Kitchener’s initiative had resulted in a K4 formation, which was withdrawn to become a training and reserve level. A new K4 was formed (30th to 35th Divs) taking over the “Pals Battalions” which had been privately organized as patriotic civilian units throughout the main towns and cities of the UK and had been awaiting adoption by the Army. K5 was the last group, 36th to 41st Divisions, made up of regional divisions, pals battalions and other volunteer battalions.

Meanwhile, like this post, the war went on. Due to shortages of men in Autumn 1914, the Generals needed troops from India, West Indies, Canada to support the growing war. Even the much-derided Territorials were asked to contribute battalions (not divisions !) to the fighting in France/Belgium. The TF battaions would be put into the BEF’s depleted regular divisions. The first TF battalion to see action was the 14th Middlesex TF County of London (1st London Scottish) in October. Thereafter, more and more TF battalions were sucked into the BEF. As a result, divisions like the 1st London Division and the Highland Division shrank in size as their battalions were cherry-picked for the regular BEF.

Finally, in February 1915, the TF was given the go-ahead to send their own 14 divisions on active service. Those TF divisions ready to go were given numbers in the order they were ready to go. The Lancashire Div was first and received the number 42. Cherry-picked divisions like the 1st London and the Highland Div, which by February 1915 had each only six of their 12 battalions remaining, had to wait for other battalions to become available. As a result, the un-plundered 2nd London Div became the 47th Div, while the 1st London, when back to full-strength, had to plump for 56th Division. The Highland Division, which did not want a number at all, managed to get 2 Black Watch battalions from an independent brigade, plus an English independent brigade – North Lancashire Bde. Ready by end of April, it received the number 51. A second group of TF divisions was then formed for active and reserve duties. This group also included a division made up of surplus Royal Navy and Royal Marines personnel – the 63rd Naval Div. A further handful of TF and Yeomanry divisions were formed as the war demanded.

At the beginning of 1916, the 51st said goodbye to the North Lancashire Bde and formed a brigade of incoming Highland battalions, included some plundered a year before. The 51st started its climb to a famous reputation that same summer on the Somme. A legend was born.

WW2 was much more complicated !

[Lachlan09]

my grandfather was in the 51st Highland Division he was captured as his group was ordered to stay put and defending the retreating lines needless to say he was a guest in the German pow camps for 5 years after Dunkirk and spent most of his time in Poland at stalag xxa

it was 4 years before my grandmother heard news he was still alive by hearing word from a local women whose husband was prisoner with him and managed to get a letter to them somehow
interesting information though it gives me a insight into how his company would have altered over time

Was that the camp at Thorn, Poland ?

Back in the 60’s/70’s, I knew 2 ex-POW’s from the 51st , both living in Edinburgh. One was Jimmy Fulton, a Seaforths RSM, who was captured at St Valery. He became the Stalag’s “British Man Of Confidence”, the go-between for British and Germans. When I got to know him, he gave me his aluminium German POW ID oval, plus some POW camp money/tokens bearing the red triangle, plus some other of his POW items. Unluckily, they disappeared during my divorce when I was abroad and my separated wife was in the UK. Beyond my control, they got sold off for a song to some trader along with much of my memorabilia. My Foreign Legion collection was saved only because luckily it was still in my parents’ house.

The other man, also a Seaforth captured at St Valery, was Donald Montgomery, a pugnacious Hebridean ! When I knew him, one eye was permanently squint as a result of a German rifle-butt. During the march into captivity, he slipped out of the line of march to answer the call of nature. As he squatted under a bridge, a German guard appeared, shouting at him to get back in line. Donald, his battledress trousers at his ankles, complained and after further a mutual retort, looked up and shouted something very rude in Gaelic, the passion of which needed no translation. He got a rifle butt slammed into his temple for his troubles, dislodging one eye.

[Lachlan09]

I’ve just had an amazing revelation about the Argylls.

Whilst looking for further website info on 5th A&SH (WW2) with a view to their mid-war history, I came across a website called “francefightson.org”. I arrived at Chapter 40, entitled “January 20, 1942: British Order of Battle in Malaya and Borneo - To Chief of the Imperial General Staff General Sir Alan Brooke K.C.B., - Report on the status of His Majesty’s Armies in the field and in fortresses as of 0.600 hours 20th day of January in the year of Our Lord 1942”. It was prepared by General Sir John Standish Surtees Prendergast Vereker, V.C; K.C.B; D.S.O; M.C; 6th Viscount Gort, Peerage of Ireland, G.O.C. Malaya Command.

It is a very detailed list of all British, Commonwealth and Empire military units, including non-coms and ad-hoc units, in Malaya and Borneo, where stationed at that time, their equipment on hand etc during the Japanese offensive. It lists such as the SOE “Stay-Behind” units, as well as the Aussie/British raiding “Rose Force” commanded by Major Lloyd A.I.F. & Major Rose 2nd Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (founder & observer attached from Malaya).

The 2nd A&SH is listed of course, it’s CO, (now) Brigadier I. Stewart - commanding 12th Bde (Rengam). Of course, the 2nd Argylls are forever linked with the Malaya Campaign of 1941-42.

However, I was very surprised to find that the 5th and 6th Battalions A&SH, both still MG units, were also in Malaya at this time. They were part of 11th Indian Division based at Gurun. Up to this moment, I never knew Argylls units, other than the 2nd, were in Malaya too at this time ! I have never seen it referred to in books on the Argylls or even on the Argylls’ own website.

It warrants further research to see what became of them. Did they end up in Singapore ? Did they cease to exist like the 2nd Battalion ? Were they withdrawn before the campaign ended ? Does this help to explain why the 5th and 6th Battalions were merged in the UK under the name of the 6th and were converted to SP artillery ? I will find out !

BTW, Scottish units listed as being in Malaya at this time are:-

5th (M.G. Bn) Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (11th Indian Div - Gurun)

6th (M.G. Bn) Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (11th Indian Div - Gurun)

2nd (M.G.) Liverpool Scottish (King’s Regiment); (13th Lancashire Div. -ex Krohcol)

10th Highland Light Infantry; (16th Indian Division; Kahang & R.A.F. Kahang)

5th Cameronians & City of Glasgow (Highland Light Infantry) (16th Indian Division; Kahang & R.A.F. Kahang)

8th Cameronians & City of Glasgow (Highland Light Infantry) (16th Indian Division; Kahang & R.A.F. Kahang)

2nd Gordon Highlanders; (9th Indian Division; R.A.F. Kluang Air Field & Kluang)

2nd Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (12th Indian Bde; Rengam)

[skauwt]

Was that the camp at Thorn, Poland ?

that's the one
ive not known too much about his time in the camp.. not sure if my father or aunt could tell me much about it these days ,
he did some work on the farms there so apart from manual labour i don't know if he went through any hardship ,
but he got rid of his medals not long after the war so he wasn't one for any story's about what had happened and i gather he wasn't too happy about being a pow
he was in the army pre war for a good few years and as far as i know he got the rank of 2nd leftenant ive no idea about his roles
here is a couple of pictures of the issued clothing he had during his time that you may be interested in seeing

(seated on the right hand side)

[BobsYourUncle]

I am a living historian, part of a group that now portrays the 7th Battalion Argylls in WWII. We rebadged from the 2d Battalion last summer.

For a reasonably full accounting of the disposition of the various battalions after WWI up to the late 1990's, I would refer you to "Fighting Highlanders! The History of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders" by P.J.R. Mileham. Your original post asked in particular about the disposition of the 4th battalion. Mileham states at page 106: "At the end of the war [WWI] the Regiment shrank to its pre-war size. All the Service battalions of the Argylls were disbanded, while the 3rd and 4th Special Reserve battalions were amalgamated and placed in suspended animation, until their final deletion from the Order of Battle in 1953. Of the Territorial Battalions, 5th and 6th Argylls from Renfrew amalgamated in 1922 (to be separated again later), while 7th, 8th and 9th continued in service between the wars, until they were required once more at a time of crisis."

In subsequent chapters, Mileham gives greater detail about the disposition and movements of the various battalions of the regiment during and after the war. Mileham was a Major in the Royal Tank Regiment, and his history is one of the best general narratives treating A&SH history. Of course, official histories were published of the Argyll Battalions after the war. Official histories were published of the 1st, 2nd [Malayan], 2nd Reconstituted, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Battalions, all by publisher Thomas Nelson and Sons, Ltd, beginning in 1949.

I hope this assists you in your quest. Cheers!

[Lachlan09]

Thanks for that !

Indeed, about 1973 I bought some of the Nelson volumes in a 2nd hand bookshop on George IV Bridge, Edinburgh – the 1st, 2nd (original), 6th, 9th, 58th LAA plus a thinner “The Argylls in Korea”. A couple of those dark green leather volumes were missing their dust-jackets, but the last three had theirs – purple and dark green with diagonal Argylls’ dicing band and “The Argylls in Korea” was I think similar but a dark blue in lieu of purple and the volume was blue I think. I also bought an excellent big old history of the 15th Scottish Div in WW2 (complete with photos, coloured maps with tissue protection leaves etc.). All the books are long-gone – “hors de divorce”. I always recall “The Argylls in Korea” had a wonderful posed photo of Piper Pitkeathly with his hands over his ears as he lets an American PFC (called Gethen ?) try out his pipes ! How do I still remember that after 30-odd years ?

I also recall a photo, in an Argylls volume, of an Argylls RA detachment (light ack-ack) beside their Bofors gun at a 1944 liberation exhibition in Paris. Logic tells me that it must be the 58th LAA (A&SH) which I believe was based on the 4th Argylls and therefore I had the Nelson book too, but my memory is duller on it being the 4th Argylls or not.

Were the 91st and 93rd Anti-Tank in the same Nelson volume ? I can’t recall.
Did Mileham mention the 5th and 6th (MG) Battalions being in Malaya in 1942 ? That is a complete revelation to me and I would like to verify that it occurred.

I wish I still had my books !