Stripe/Sett

[Bugbear]

For what it's worth, I would prefer my tartan, if I were having a kilt made in it, to be pleated to the sett. I don't see why I should care how anyone else decides to have their kilts pleated.

And yes, I prefer to be boring!

[Brian K]

What I do not like about pleating to the stripe is that it makes the kilt look "unnatural." The beauty of the tartan, in my humble opinion, is destroyed by playing "cute games" with the rear of the kilt. I don't need flashes of colour brought about by the "swish" of the kilt: the tartan speaks for itself!

Of course these are my opinions. I'll still go around wearing my boring old kilts with no wow factor.

Sandy-

I seriously doubt that there is anything about your Highland wardrobe that could accurately be described as boring, and that is not what I meant when I said I had not seen a kilt pleated to the sett that was "appealing" to me. Perhaps I chose my words poorly, but what I meant was that they did not appeal to me in the sense of saying "Wouldn't you like something just like me?" I work retail so I see many people every day and I see a lot of perfectly fine outfits that I have no interest in owning or wearing. It's not that I don't like them, just that I don't want them. Of course I also see a lot of people in outfits that are "unappealing" in EVERY sense of the word. There are times when wearing dark glasses (a blindfold?) would be nice.

As far as "unnatural" is concerned, my opinion (and that's all it is - I like this forum because at its best it's descriptive not prescriptive) is somewhat different from yours.

Most garments that are pleated - trousers, shirts (backs and sleeves) and skirts, for example, are pleated with little more in mind than how many pleats there are in a certain space and how deep those pleats will be. No complicated mathematics to determine how to lay them out to achieve a particular effect. Matt Newsome has explained, at X Marks and other places, that the earliest kilts were pleated to "no pattern" and that the current usage of pleating to stripe or to sett are innovations that came along later. In that sense any particular pleating scheme that creates or preserves a particular pattern is "unnatural."

Of the two "unnatural" options, I prefer pleating to the stripe because it is not pretending to be something it is not - as OC Richard put it - a flat piece of cloth, but it is, in fact, emphasizing (celebrating?) the pleats, which are essential to proper kilt construction. Pleating to the sett seems to me an attempt to conceal, rather than reveal, the pleats.

Your mileage may vary, but, for what it's worth, that is my humble opinion. I don't really care how someone else pleats his kilt, but that's how, and why, I'd make my choice when the time comes.

Regards,

Brian

[Brian K]

I forgot to mention in my immediately preceding post that I agree entirely with Jeff and Richard that there are going to be times when pleating to the sett might well be the only good option. I viewed Jeff's new kilt in his review and it is lovely. After reading what he wrote here I concur that pleating to the stripe could have led to unfortunate results.

In the thread that's currently running about box pleated kilts and whether they work best pleated to stripe or sett Matt has several examples of how he has done them including two pleated to "no pattern" - one by necessity and one by request.

Regards,

Brian

[Bugbear]

Brian, in rereading the rest of your posts in this thread, I get the sense you are primarily looking at this from an aesthetic prospective. I can understand where you are coming from.

However, JSFMACLJR, Jock and I are also looking at this from a tartan, and the meaning of tartan prospective. The sett of the tartan, in their case being clan, and in my case having symbolic meaning, is more important, in our minds, than the aesthetics of a "busy butt" pleating arrangement. *At least that's how I interpret what's being discussed.*

It looks unnatural to JSFMACLJR's eyes because he would be trying to convey a traditionalist manner of kilt wearing which probably puts all the flashyness in the sporran and cut steel buttons.

I, of course, don't have to look at anyone's pleats, and prefer to be bland, so...

[Freelancer]

I definitely prefer pleating to the stripe. To my eye, it looks smart and orderly. Pleating to the sett tends to give me a sort of tattered curtain effect, where the pleats open and the sett becomes jumbled.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I generally prefer pleating to the stripe for a number of reasons.

One is that it is an older form of pleating, and I always like to give a nod to historic precedent in my kilt wearing. Pleating to the stripe can be documented in military kilts back to the 1790s and was the norm in civilian kilts as well by 1820. Whereas pleating to the sett was still a relatively new and noteworthy thing as late as the early 20th century.

Pleating to the sett is by and far the "norm" for civilian kilts these days, and that's another reason I like pleating to the stripe. I like to be a bit different from the norm when possible. :-) If for no other reason than to show people it can legitimately be done different ways. (I have encountered people who are of the opinion that only military kilts can be pleated to the stripe).

But the main reason I prefer pleating to the stripe is that I, personally, find it visually more appealing. Your opinion may vary. But it's your kilt and so you should feel free to get it pleated how you want it to be (within the limits of what is possible, of course, with your given tartan).

[Brian K]

Brian, in rereading the rest of your posts in this thread, I get the sense you are primarily looking at this from an aesthetic prospective. I can understand where you are coming from.

However, JSFMACLJR, Jock and I are also looking at this from a tartan, and the meaning of tartan prospective. The sett of the tartan, in their case being clan, and in my case having symbolic meaning, is more important, in our minds, than the aesthetics of a "busy butt" pleating arrangement. *At least that's how I interpret what's being discussed.*

It looks unnatural to JSFMACLJR's eyes because he would be trying to convey a traditionalist manner of kilt wearing which probably puts all the flashyness in the sporran and cut steel buttons.

I, of course, don't have to look at anyone's pleats, and prefer to be bland, so...

Of course I'm thinking of aesthetics. Every time we choose an article of clothing we are making aesthetic choices. A large number of the threads in the Kilt Advice forum - the home of this thread - relate to aesthetics: "what looks best with..." "How does this look..." "would you wear x with y, or would z be better?"

If aesthetics were not important there'd be much less variety in highland dress than there is. Velvet doublets, diced or argyle hose, silver buttons, long hair sporrans and many other items that we take for granted might simply not exist.

Jock may think that pleating to the sett is traditional for civilian wear, and, if he does, I certainly respect the opinion of my generous benefactor, but what he said was that to his eyes pleating to the stripe "looks far too busy." That is a statement about aesthetics, not tradition.

Sandy said that he thinks pleating to the stripe looks unnatural and that, too, seems like an aesthetic choice on his part. Again, I respect his opinion, even if I don't take it as my own.

I happen to think that the apron of the kilt is where the tartan is shown to its best effect. it's a (relatively) flat and continuous surface that keeps all the elements - the stripes - of the sett in proper place and proportion. The slightest movement of the pleats or the slightest error in sewing and creasing the pleats can distort the pattern and ruin the beauty of the sett. When I design a tartan I fuss over it to make sure everything is the way I'd like it to be. Am I always happy with it? No, but the ones I am happy with should be used in a way that displays them the best and I'm not convinced pleating to the sett does that. Freelancer's image of a tattered curtain springs to mind.

As far as tradition is concerned, I agree that it is important to pay attention to tradition, but we also have to decide where it starts and ends, and we do not have to be slaves to it. According to our resident tartan scholar, pleating to the sett was still relatively new and noteworthy as recently as the early 20th century. That is quite recent in the history of clothing and if that is your standard it invalidates the traditions of the century or more prior to that in the era of modern Highland dress.

Again, this is simply my opinion and I think you ought to pleat your kilt in the manner which makes you most happy. If that is to the sett then I'll not stand in your way. In fact I'll encourage you in doing it that way if it make you enjoy your kilt all the more.

Regards,

Brian

[Bugbear]

Of course I'm thinking of aesthetics. Every time we choose an article of clothing we are making aesthetic choices. A large number of the threads in the Kilt Advice forum - the home of this thread - relate to aesthetics: "what looks best with..." "How does this look..." "would you wear x with y, or would z be better?"

If aesthetics were not important there'd be much less variety in highland dress than there is. Velvet doublets, diced or argyle hose, silver buttons, long hair sporrans and many other items that we take for granted might simply not exist.

Jock may think that pleating to the sett is traditional for civilian wear, and, if he does, I certainly respect the opinion of my generous benefactor, but what he said was that to his eyes pleating to the stripe "looks far too busy." That is a statement about aesthetics, not tradition.

Sandy said that he thinks pleating to the stripe looks unnatural and that, too, seems like an aesthetic choice on his part. Again, I respect his opinion, even if I don't take it as my own.

I happen to think that the apron of the kilt is where the tartan is shown to its best effect. it's a (relatively) flat and continuous surface that keeps all the elements - the stripes - of the sett in proper place and proportion. The slightest movement of the pleats or the slightest error in sewing and creasing the pleats can distort the pattern and ruin the beauty of the sett. When I design a tartan I fuss over it to make sure everything is the way I'd like it to be. Am I always happy with it? No, but the ones I am happy with should be used in a way that displays them the best and I'm not convinced pleating to the sett does that. Freelancer's image of a tattered curtain springs to mind.

As far as tradition is concerned, I agree that it is important to pay attention to tradition, but we also have to decide where it starts and ends, and we do not have to be slaves to it. According to our resident tartan scholar, pleating to the sett was still relatively new and noteworthy as recently as the early 20th century. That is quite recent in the history of clothing and if that is your standard it invalidates the traditions of the century or more prior to that in the era of modern Highland dress.

Again, this is simply my opinion and I think you ought to pleat your kilt in the manner which makes you most happy. If that is to the sett then I'll not stand in your way. In fact I'll encourage you in doing it that way if it make you enjoy your kilt all the more.

Regards,

Brian

Fair enough, Brian; though I said it was more than aesthetics, rather than a lack of aesthetics. I do not speak for Jock and Sandy, and can not bridge that gap.

I'm out.

[Jock Scot]

Brian K.

You are quite correct. How the tartan in the kilt is pleated has, as far as I am concerned, nothing to do with tradition. I just happen to think tartans pleated to the stripe look far too busy, to my eyes they look more like a string bead curtain and unnecessarily brash for civilian wear. Others are quite at liberty to think otherwise and no doubt the world will carry on spinning whatever we choose.

I have a feeling that you are correct with the suggestion that pleating to the stripe does seem to be more popular on your side of the Atlantic.

[Brian K]

Fair enough, Brian; though I said it was more than aesthetics, rather than a lack of aesthetics. I do not speak for Jock and Sandy, and can not bridge that gap.

I'm out.

Awww...Ted, don't be "out." I like your input. I just wish you'd be a bit more assertive. At least you're not hiding under the chair now

Sorry if it appeared that I misread your post, but I thought the aesthetic question should be dealt with first as you mentioned it first. I was just emphasizing how important aesthetics were to me.

I do think I dealt with the ideas of tradition and the importance of tartan in and of itself. I just happen to think that pleating to the sett is not necessarily the most traditional arrangement nor do I think it always serves the interest of the tartan better than pleating to the stripe because no matter how hard you try you are not guaranteed of getting a perfect representation of the sett in the pleats especially when you're moving, which most of us do a lot. Your mileage may vary and that is fine by me. If we all agreed about everything it'd be a dull world indeed.

Regards,

Brian