Stripe/Sett

[Bugbear]

Of course I'm thinking of aesthetics. Every time we choose an article of clothing we are making aesthetic choices. A large number of the threads in the Kilt Advice forum - the home of this thread - relate to aesthetics: "what looks best with..." "How does this look..." "would you wear x with y, or would z be better?"

If aesthetics were not important there'd be much less variety in highland dress than there is. Velvet doublets, diced or argyle hose, silver buttons, long hair sporrans and many other items that we take for granted might simply not exist.

Jock may think that pleating to the sett is traditional for civilian wear, and, if he does, I certainly respect the opinion of my generous benefactor, but what he said was that to his eyes pleating to the stripe "looks far too busy." That is a statement about aesthetics, not tradition.

Sandy said that he thinks pleating to the stripe looks unnatural and that, too, seems like an aesthetic choice on his part. Again, I respect his opinion, even if I don't take it as my own.

I happen to think that the apron of the kilt is where the tartan is shown to its best effect. it's a (relatively) flat and continuous surface that keeps all the elements - the stripes - of the sett in proper place and proportion. The slightest movement of the pleats or the slightest error in sewing and creasing the pleats can distort the pattern and ruin the beauty of the sett. When I design a tartan I fuss over it to make sure everything is the way I'd like it to be. Am I always happy with it? No, but the ones I am happy with should be used in a way that displays them the best and I'm not convinced pleating to the sett does that. Freelancer's image of a tattered curtain springs to mind.

As far as tradition is concerned, I agree that it is important to pay attention to tradition, but we also have to decide where it starts and ends, and we do not have to be slaves to it. According to our resident tartan scholar, pleating to the sett was still relatively new and noteworthy as recently as the early 20th century. That is quite recent in the history of clothing and if that is your standard it invalidates the traditions of the century or more prior to that in the era of modern Highland dress.

Again, this is simply my opinion and I think you ought to pleat your kilt in the manner which makes you most happy. If that is to the sett then I'll not stand in your way. In fact I'll encourage you in doing it that way if it make you enjoy your kilt all the more.

Regards,

Brian

Fair enough, Brian; though I said it was more than aesthetics, rather than a lack of aesthetics. I do not speak for Jock and Sandy, and can not bridge that gap.

I'm out.

[Brian K]

Fair enough, Brian; though I said it was more than aesthetics, rather than a lack of aesthetics. I do not speak for Jock and Sandy, and can not bridge that gap.

I'm out.

Awww...Ted, don't be "out." I like your input. I just wish you'd be a bit more assertive. At least you're not hiding under the chair now

Sorry if it appeared that I misread your post, but I thought the aesthetic question should be dealt with first as you mentioned it first. I was just emphasizing how important aesthetics were to me.

I do think I dealt with the ideas of tradition and the importance of tartan in and of itself. I just happen to think that pleating to the sett is not necessarily the most traditional arrangement nor do I think it always serves the interest of the tartan better than pleating to the stripe because no matter how hard you try you are not guaranteed of getting a perfect representation of the sett in the pleats especially when you're moving, which most of us do a lot. Your mileage may vary and that is fine by me. If we all agreed about everything it'd be a dull world indeed.

Regards,

Brian

[Bugbear]

Awww...Ted, don't be "out." I like your input. I just wish you'd be a bit more assertive. At least you're not hiding under the chair now

Sorry if it appeared that I misread your post, but I thought the aesthetic question should be dealt with first as you mentioned it first. I was just emphasizing how important aesthetics were to me.

I do think I dealt with the ideas of tradition and the importance of tartan in and of itself. I just happen to think that pleating to the sett is not necessarily the most traditional arrangement nor do I think it always serves the interest of the tartan better than pleating to the stripe because no matter how hard you try you are not guaranteed of getting a perfect representation of the sett in the pleats especially when you're moving, which most of us do a lot. Your mileage may vary and that is fine by me. If we all agreed about everything it'd be a dull world indeed.

Regards,

Brian

I was attempting to give you an idea of where Jock and Sandy might be coming from. You say you have designed many tartans. For either of them, and of this I am sure, there is only a single tartan. It may be that the sett is what they are comfortable and used to seeing.

I have been assertive in very carefully reading many, many of Jock, Sandy, MOR, et all's posts, as well as, asking hundreds of questions of them over the last couple of years. Learning from them, they don't agree on everything, has required me to make quite a few mistakes and even finding myself in the middle of their minor disagreements. I was usually corrected by Matt Newsome.

I have since put a hold on wearing Highland attire, so I don't want to get too entangled in these discussions. Somehow I still do...

Hope that helps you understand where I am coming from in this.

[Rob Wright]

Ted, you will find the right place for you someday. Know that there are many here who will support you when you make your decision.

Rob

[BoldHighlander]

Ted, you will find the right place for you someday. Know that there are many here who will support you when you make your decision.

Rob

Indeed...what Rob said Ted!

[Jock Scot]

I was attempting to give you an idea of where Jock and Sandy might be coming from. You say you have designed many tartans. For either of them, and of this I am sure, there is only a single tartan. It may be that the sett is what they are comfortable and used to seeing.

I have been assertive in very carefully reading many, many of Jock, Sandy, MOR, et all's posts, as well as, asking hundreds of questions of them over the last couple of years. Learning from them, they don't agree on everything, has required me to make quite a few mistakes and even finding myself in the middle of their minor disagreements. I was usually corrected by Matt Newsome.

I have since put a hold on wearing Highland attire, so I don't want to get too entangled in these discussions. Somehow I still do...

Hope that helps you understand where I am coming from in this.

It shows a singular lack of imagination to conform completely Ted. Sandy, MoR, me and others, only have very minor differences and those can be put down to just variations on the same theme.It would be a very sad world if a spot of personal flair and imagination cannot be brought into the proceedings. Would it not? We all have our own point of view on a particular subject, some are right ,some are wrong, some are important, some are not, some are a mixture of all of those, but it is how those views are voiced that is the vital ingredient to a civilized discussion and as you well know, that is what happens here.

Ted, you know as much as I do about wearing the kilt, anyone with an open and enquiring mind, like yours, who wants to, can learn in a very short time all that there is to know about wearing the kilt. You ask questions and yes, you get bombarded with a whole heap of answers and you sift out the ones you agree with and those you don't------just like anything in life.

Wear your chosen tartan, wear your kilt pin, wear your hat, wear your hose, wear what you want, no one is going to shoot you and I have every confidence that you will be a credit to the Highland look and far more importantly, you will be a credit to yourself. Go for it!

[OC Richard]

I forgot to mention another reason that some tartans don't work well pleated to the line.

This was explained to me by a kiltmaker. She said that if you're pleating to a line in the tartan, that line must be flanked by a solid band of colour (on both sides) as wide as the pleats at their widest point. Otherwise an extra colour will appear halfway down the pleats. I think this is not so much a concern for men who have their waist and hip measurement about the same, and therefore have straight or nearly straight pleats.

Likewise, "pleating to the block" requires a band of colour as wide as the pleats at their widest point.

This kiltmaker told me that the tartan I wear, Drummond of Perth, couldn't be successfully pleated to the line for the reason above. However we were both out at a Games and sure enough there was a guy wearing my tartan but his kilt was pleated to the line! It didn't look all that great, I'll admit.

[xman]

What a great discussion, a wide range of opinions and score of helpful information too. I hadn't considered my particular set as important as all that, but I see now that it can be. If anything, the wide array of opinions expressed has only helped to solidify my view that pleating either to a stripe or the set is fine, that it merely depends on the look one wishes to achieve. I dare say I am less certain of my best course of action with my first and second kilt than I was when I started this thread and I consider it a good thing. i embrace the uncertainty of pleating and will wade into the fray with my decisions, accept the consequences of my actions and wear my kilt with pride.

Thank-you all immensely.

[Brian K]

I was attempting to give you an idea of where Jock and Sandy might be coming from. You say you have designed many tartans. For either of them, and of this I am sure, there is only a single tartan. It may be that the sett is what they are comfortable and used to seeing.

I have been assertive in very carefully reading many, many of Jock, Sandy, MOR, et all's posts, as well as, asking hundreds of questions of them over the last couple of years. Learning from them, they don't agree on everything, has required me to make quite a few mistakes and even finding myself in the middle of their minor disagreements. I was usually corrected by Matt Newsome.

I have since put a hold on wearing Highland attire, so I don't want to get too entangled in these discussions. Somehow I still do...

Hope that helps you understand where I am coming from in this.

Ted,

You are obviously a kind and gentle man and I have enjoyed reading your posts in this thread and in others. I'm sorry you seem to be having difficulty with the wearing of Highland dress at this time. While I am neither attracted to bears, nor hairy enough to be one , I think the bear tartan in your avatar is really sharp and I hope you can find yourself wearing it proudly and happily in the near future. Please do not let anyone make you think you have no "right" to wear Highland garb. It seems to me that the Scots on this forum don't seem to care whether or not you wear their national dress. In fact I think it pleases them (as long as you do it respectfully) - it's the furriners who seem to raise a fuss about how much Scottish blood you have, or whether you have the right surname.

I second everything that Jock, BoldHighlander and Rob Wright say just before me. We'll all support you in whatever decision you make, though we'd be tickled pink if you put on the kilt. I suspect you're leaning that way, or why would you still be here?

As regards the number of tartans I have designed, if I ever decide I want to wear something I have designed (and can afford custom woven cloth!) I will probably choose just one and stick with it. What I am really hoping for is that someone else will want to use one of my existing designs or will ask me to design a tartan specifically for them. A member of this forum asked me to design something for him a few weeks ago and said he'd let me know what he was looking for, but I have yet to hear from him again . Oh well, maybe some day.

Best wishes for you, my friend,

Brian