NH noob with fancy tartan weaving ambition

[Jock Scot]

Um, just out of the box, you're WAY ahead of most of us, including probably some who've never left a home village in the Orkney Islands!!!!!!!!

Steady on there! I think, you hugely mis-judge the Orkney Islands and their inhabitants and they will not thank you for your snide comment. Go there, its easy to do so, and you will certainly see ancient history at numerous sites, but you will see some of the best farmers, particularly stock farmers, in action on some of the best managed grassland that can be found anywhere in the world. You should go, its not all ruined crofts and tumble-down buildings apart from the abandoned military installations that are scattered about, far from it in fact and you will find that many Orcadians are well travelled and are very well informed.

[jsrnephdoc]

Steady on there! I think, you hugely mis-judge the Orkney Islands and their inhabitants and they will not thank you for your snide comment. Go there, its easy to do so, and you will certainly see ancient history at numerous sites, but you will see some of the best farmers, particularly stock farmers, in action on some of the best managed grassland that can be found anywhere in the world. You should go, its not all ruined crofts and tumble-down buildings apart from the abandoned military installations that are scattered about, far from it in fact and you will find that many Orcadians are well travelled and are very well informed.

I hope my apologies to you and your neighbors arrive in advance of your interpretation of my reply to NH noob..

My intent was to convey astonishment regarding the almost incredible intensity of our new member's bathing in Scottish attire history, to the extent of almost replicating in real time the efforts of people who'd been living it for centuries. The Orkneys are at the very top of my list of places to visit in Scotland, with the western extremes of Skye not far behind.

[NHhighlander]

(trying to be funny)

There is no better honor a homecoming warrior can get, than to have others doing loyal combat in his welcome.

(/ trying to be funny)

Seriously, y'all are the best!
Even on how you gallantly address issues.

BTW, I'm seriously intrigued about the Orkneys, and of contemporary craftsmen, (and the whole nine yards, as we say without meaning no harm... )

[figheadair]

Hi all,

I really want to learn!

I'm not sure what I need, because I don't know yet.
So far, I want to learn about weaving, tartan, adequate/acceptable kilt-wearing etiquette.
Very open to advice!

It is very admirable to want to learn but your task list is considerable and in some areas will require time and patience. With the greatest of respect, you appear to be attempting to go from Zero to Hero in the equivalent of 60 seconds. It's also about ability. I know nothing about you but some of the tasks you have set yourself took me years to research and master.

Long, way too long

the crazy project:
Full:
dress in proper, full kilt attire at my wife's clan meet in Scotland, in August.
Simple? Hmm.
I want it to be "real."

Just be aware that that is quite a tight timeframe, especially if the tartan you want is a non-stock one.

Quarter way project (sort of immediate, upcoming):
By April's end, have an operational loom able to weave 7-inch tartan "samples."

You'll need a warping board too. And then learn how to use both.

MUST (and that's where the fun comes in) achieve what our very esteemed colleague Peter E. MacDonald calls "total border," with herringbone and Bids-Eye.

Both of these are examples of the height of the tartan weaver's art. I would strongly suggest that you start with the basics of achieving a good 2/2 staggered twill.

I am inspired by the Maclaine Plaid "Total Border" pattern described in an article by Peter Elsea MacDonald's, https://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/A_...buie_Plaid.pdf

This is undoubtedly the most technically accomplished historical example I've examined and in my opinion is the zenith of tartan weaving.

If you are serious about learning to weave tartan then get hold of a copy of James D. Scarlett's How to Weave Fine Cloth. I think it's out of print but is well worth trying to get hold of.

[NHhighlander]

It is very admirable to want to learn but your task list is considerable and in some areas will require time and patience. With the greatest of respect, you appear to be attempting to go from Zero to Hero in the equivalent of 60 seconds. It's also about ability. I know nothing about you but some of the tasks you have set yourself took me years to research and master.

I'm smiling, because you're uncovering the man behind the smokescreen.
Calling for honesty.
Please do not worry that I might find that amiss.

I am actually very confident that you, with a well-earned place as a master in the craft through hard work, actually get it that an apprentice that (sort of) knows his place will see your attitude as an honoring one.

I, for one, certainly do.
And I thank you.

the answer:
Yes.
As charged.

Now, there is a BIG matter concerning my person that sort of escapes the purview of this forum, which is my struggle to find suitable humility and people skills. The problem is, I am horrid gifted. That's just what the Good Lord gave me, together with ADD (attention deficit dissorder, lack of focus and hyperfocus, mixed), and impatience, but maybe that later is just me, not blaming Him.
Right now I'm supposed to be doing taxes, due April 15 in the US. But, this is more interesting...
Being "gifted" is great, but it tends to make some people nervous. Also, I'm getting old. To badly paraphrase the author of Alice, I used to be able to do several impossible things before breakfast, now I call it a success with one every few days.../ During my wasted youth I fell too often into hubris, which resulted in a very spotty work career because many egos ruffled. I am trying to change my ways, but it's not that easy, and in some ways I just have to keep moving. My strategy is now to at least try to pay back, contribute back what I find, give it away to the community. And try to keep a low profile, which is definitely not my nature.

Ugh, you are right, the plan that I disclosed is not "reasonable." I don't want to fall into the temptation of turning it into a contest with myself (as if trying to prove something? I'm past that stage) and certainly not with others, it's just that, (to me) it seems feasible...

However, one reason I find it feasible is that I am not afraid to cheat. More on that anon.

Just be aware that that is quite a tight timeframe, especially if the tartan you want is a non-stock one.

It is. And I also need to keep up with my chores and farm work.
Not to paint it too thick, I am really grateful for your help in keeping me accountable and true.

You'll need a warping board too. And then learn how to use both.

Okay, whats a warping board? (searching...) Oh! Yes indeed. Will do.

Both of these are examples of the height of the tartan weaver's art. I would strongly suggest that you start with the basics of achieving a good 2/2 staggered twill.

Indeed.
What I myself see as a huge challenge ahead is to achieve uniform beating, perfect-enough 45 degrees and squared squares.
Doubtlessly this takes a lot of effort and practice.
That is where "constructive cheating" comes in.
Technology.
"In principle," it should be fairly easy to devise means to have the beater give a uniform pressure. I am cogitating a weight on a lever that acts on it, so that it's not the unschooled human (me) that pulls the beater, but I just pull the weight back up to a catch, then release to let it drop when needed, without physically touching the beater, letting the weight do a very uniform motion. Or perhaps a spring. A means of uniform, repeatable force.

Also, and maybe more important than the beating pressure, the web must advance exactly the same distance, every thread. That is a bit more complicated to achieve, but I am envisioning two rollers that hold the incoming web under pressure, and are actuated through a worm-thread or some such means that create just the right advance, every time. I might cheat further, and make this worm-thread setup be operated by robotics, nothing fancy, just something that lets me control exactly the advance that correspond to the TPI desired, and adjust until I get it right.
Now, so far this is hypothetical. As my mother used to say, "we'll see."

I know this is cheating. But so is nature. To quote Mary E. Black, in The Sett and Weaving of Tartans, "tartan weavers are born, not made, and it takes a bit of doing for most of us to achieve a well woven tartan until we have had considerable practice."
Nature has given me the skill to build machines, not the skill to do repetitive fine motion. So, years ago, because I like calligraphy so much, but simply can't focus long enough, I built an automaton that does calligraphy... Might try that kind of strategy again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94rQKLqFSYg

This is undoubtedly the most technically accomplished historical example I've examined and in my opinion is the zenith of tartan weaving.

Which makes it so attractive...

I mean, if I fail at this particular quest part way, that means that I got past 2/2 twill pretty good.
Which, me can agree would be not bad...

As an Experiential Education professional (Outward Bound-inspired), I see the "reaching for the stars" as a good thing. It happens that I often give up after I reach a goal, and go seek something else. Therefore, an unreachable goal seems to be the right thing to rise me up. (Robertson's war cry is said to be "Fierce when Roused," and we are told that is ours as well, for us Duncan. In my household, we prefer the Admiral's motto, "Disce pati" rather than the "Virtutis gloria merces." I also prefer the so-called "Ancient Duncan" tartan, which is not in the registry. A whole other discussion... )

If you are serious about learning to weave tartan then get hold of a copy of James D. Scarlett's How to Weave Fine Cloth. I think it's out of print but is well worth trying to get hold of.

Fantastic "actionable" suggestion that I got done in a few minutes. (Other point you raise are perhaps more valuable, as they reach deep, thank you)
Scarlett's How to Weave Fine Cloth is in the Internet Archive for loan, https://archive.org/details/isbn_0835929868
and for purchase, used (I definitely will get it) https://www.vialibri.net/searches?ti...sort=price.asc



You didn't sign with name, but if you are who I think you are, let me close by saying that I am a grateful fan.
I especially appreciate that uncommon skill to write about very complex technical matters in a language that can be reached by one not yet skilled in the art.
Well, I needed to print and read and highlight those papers that mention the Total Border, but that's more because of my own foibles, the gist and the important parts are reachable, even though complex. There will be questions coming, but not right now.
I must do those taxes!!!

Yama

[figheadair]

I also prefer the so-called "Ancient Duncan" tartan, which is not in the registry. A whole other discussion... )

Different colour palettes do not make a different tartan. It they did then the register would be five times as big.

I needed to print and read and highlight those papers that mention the Total Border

Here's an example I wove.