Black Tie means a bow tie not a black coloured tie

[macwilkin]

Todd ,yet again , I think you read too much in a post:- nowhere does it say in bikelounger's post that rural folk resent all manner of proper attire... he simply said clothes should be appropriate for work!

You comment "I'm afraid this post is just as judgemental of those of us who take pride in our formal attire as the people who judge those who do not wear it." really doesn't follow, as he is not judging anyone else , merely saying that black tie isn't for him!

Please don't think I'm against your having your own opinions, but it's an observation that you feel that "proper attire"(your words) is being attacked ,and clearly in this post it wasn't, that poster obviously isn't one for the full black number, but he didn't say that other kilt wearer couldn't or shouldn't.

Paul,

Regardless of the original intention of the poster (and his replies regarding my initial reply do clarify his meaning), you must admit that there is some "inverse snobbery" at Xmarks regarding traditionalists. That was my point.

In regards to work clothes, yes, the kilt originally was "field kit" -- but like those who say that kilts must evolve or die, why can't a kilt evolve from "field kit" to "formal wear"? Remember, a traditional kilt can be used for both.

Respectfully,

Todd

[bikeolounger]

Paul,

Regardless of the original intention of the poster (and his replies regarding my initial reply do clarify his meaning), you must admit that there is some "inverse snobbery" at Xmarks regarding traditionalists. That was my point.

In regards to work clothes, yes, the kilt originally was "field kit" -- but like those who say that kilts must evolve or die, why can't a kilt evolve from "field kit" to "formal wear"? Remember, a traditional kilt can be used for both.

Respectfully,

Todd

Todd, with all due respect: Yes, there are sentiments that can be construed as "inverse snobbery." There are also a TON of posts that show an even greater degree of kilt snobbery. That snobbery is what prompted my "over the top" post in the first place--the notion that one must own a traditional kilt to be able to say one owns a kilt (I am not willing to subject a $400+ garment to my lifestyle, and my lifestyle does not include full-on formal stuff).

Sure, I'd like to own a well-made semi-formal kilt in the tartan associated with my surname, in something other than a SportKilt, for wear on the rare occasion where a tie of any sort is appropriate. I've seen guys who (so my girlfriend tells me) look exceptionally dashing in their finery. Heck my girlfriend would probably tell you I would look as dashing if not more so (not that she's biased or anything). I don't begrudge anyone their ability to justify formal wear. It just isn't my scene.

It is good to read that you have figured out my point. I'll let it be a testament to my bad mood of the day (unrelated to anything on xmarks) that I didn't make it clear in the first place.

[Spc. Scott]

First off I can say that I don't own a full formal kit or even a semi-formal one. My opinion on this is to dress to the occasion. If you cannot do that then by all means wear the best that you do have. Stand tall and be proud of yourself and that will shine through more than what you may or may not be wearing.

[thescot]

Well, I wonder how Courtmount really feels about all this.

Actually, I agree--for the most part. It is my understanding that a long, black four-in-hand is perfectly acceptable for black tie affairs . . . but I've never actually anyone wearing such. Nor would I do so.

The point of black tie is to be plain, non-showy, tasteful. Adding bling, red cumberbunds, etc. certainly detract from the plainness of the ensemble. Unless one is kilted. Then all bets are off. The Scottish traditions dictate in that case--silver mounts and fur sporrans are not really considered bling!

But, like my firend Courtmount, I much prefer the traditional.

Watching the knuckleheads at the Oscars is sufficient cause to question the future of our civilization. Why anyone would care what one of those overpaid nitwits does or thinks is well beyond me.

[Spc. Scott]

Watching the knuckleheads at the Oscars is sufficient cause to question the future of our civilization. Why anyone would care what one of those overpaid nitwits does or thinks is well beyond me.

It is too bad that it seems a good portion of the general public does care and will emulate what they see.

[Bugbear]

O, ok, I follow, we're talking about wearing a four-in-hand tie with a low cut waistcoat and jacket like a tux. There are visual fashion reasons that combination does not work well.

[Jock Scot]

bikeolounger.
I do wish people would understand what "a black tie event" is and then we would not have to have this discussion. Whether we get an opportunity to go to one of these events, or we choose, or not, to go is entirely another matter . Whether we like it or not there are conventions, I am not talking laws here, that we have to/should follow in life, some are important, some are not. That choice is for all of us to make. However, if we choose to follow a particular course then it really is down to us to follow those conventions with good grace. If you cannot, for your own good reasons, then go and find something that you are more at ease with. Its that simple.Surely a simple black tie is not worth all this "inverted snobbery" of yours. You have made a choice and I, for one, certainly respect that.

[McNulty]

I think about what Winston Churchill once said about the differences and similarities between the UK and the US. "We are a common people separated by a common language. What is a "prat", "chavs", and "full fig" mean in our native tongues? I'm an English teacher in the US and always on the look out for colorful/colourful language. Thanx in advance. AND BTW I agree with your fashion concerns as most people do blindly follow the fashion scene rather than being their own person. I deal with teenagers who dress according to current skinny fashion mavens and expose way too much skin.
Nulty

[Paul Henry]

Todd, this goes round and round....... you feel that there is an "inverse snobbery" on occasion, no argument from me.

I've always thought kilts are for all, whatever their feelings on matter of "proper attire".I enjoy wearing the kilt in very a traditional style or with pushed down socks, and goodness knows all styles in between. I worn a kilt in high and low places,and hope that I fitted in , whatever the occasion.

Black tie events aren't generally my milleau, but if I'm asked then I will wear what is asked for and appropriate, but at the other times I've worn kilts on the beach with bare feet!

Some of my kilts are likely seen as an front to some , and other kilts might be far to traditional for some.That is the beauty of the kilt, it can be worn in many different ways.

I suppose I'm puzzled why you always weigh in defence of traditional kilt wearing when I really do think that most of us do wear kilts traditionally, with a flair and a dedication, because the bottom line is, that we enjoy wearing them

[macwilkin]

Todd, this goes round and round....... you feel that there is an "inverse snobbery" on occasion, no argument from me.

I've always thought kilts are for all, whatever their feelings on matter of "proper attire".I enjoy wearing the kilt in very a traditional style or with pushed down socks, and goodness knows all styles in between. I worn a kilt in high and low places,and hope that I fitted in , whatever the occasion.

Black tie events aren't generally my milleau, but if I'm asked then I will wear what is asked for and appropriate, but at the other times I've worn kilts on the beach with bare feet!

Some of my kilts are likely seen as an front to some , and other kilts might be far to traditional for some.That is the beauty of the kilt, it can be worn in many different ways.

I suppose I'm puzzled why you always weigh in defence of traditional kilt wearing when I really do think that most of us do wear kilts traditionally, with a flair and a dedication, because the bottom line is, that we enjoy wearing them

Paul,

Believe it or not, I agree with almost all of your post.

I defend traditionalists because at times on this forum, traditionalists take it on the chin from those who advocate a more non-traditionalist approach. If the kilt is about "freedom", then even those who choose to wear their kilts in a more traditional manner are free to do so.

I hope that makes sense. All points-of-view should be respected. I'm not going to tell you I'm wrong for wearing a certain style of kilt in a certain way, but if someone asks my opinion, I'll be honest and forthright in my reply.

Regards,

Todd