The Varieties of Traditional Experience: To Jabot or not To Jabot

[CMcG]

Doing a little more research, I see that some people suggest the names ascot and cravat are interchangeable. <snip>

I'm still a little confused with this one. I thought all Ascots were cravats but not all cravats were Ascots? Specifically, it seems the Ascot has wide, diamond shaped points and a narrow band.:


According to the link from JerseyLawyer, a Highland cravat is more similar to a riding stock. I think that means it is longer so that it can doubled around the neck before the knot is tied and pinned down?


I'm still not sure if either of these is an acceptable replacement for a jabot in either white or black tie, but hopefully someone more knowledgable will clarify...

[Bugbear]

Doing a little more research, I see that some people suggest the names ascot and cravat are interchangeable. Just to be certain, the device to which I refer is the scarf that goes inside an open-necked shirt, in the manner of Thurston Howell, III and Robert DuVall in APOCALYPSE NOW. I believe its general connotation is of at-home elegance and/or casual distinction. You will see on other forum postings that it is to the bow tie as the bow tie is to the four-in-hand- a little riskier, a little rarer. But, like a dinner jacket, unless modified somehow it might be a bit of a mixed metaphor to throw it in with a kilt.

I do not wish to sound political or to alarm the mods, but it may be too English to be considered for traditional highland wear.

I look forward to either contradiction or confirmation.

No, MacLowlife, you should not wear that ascot. A bolt of Scottish lightning would most likely vaporize you and a gust of wind would blow your ashes and smoke on the host and other guests. It would be rude to put them in that situation.

[JSFMACLJR]

I'm still not sure if either of these is an acceptable replacement for a jabot in either white or black tie, but hopefully someone more knowledgable will clarify...

Yes, a stock ( and by extension a "Highland Cravat" ) is an acceptable replacement for a lace jabot. It says as much in the 1937 Dress and Insignia Worn at His Majesty's Court.

[MacRobert's Reply]

Yes, a stock ( and by extension a "Highland Cravat" ) is an acceptable replacement for a lace jabot. It says as much in the 1937 Dress and Insignia Worn at His Majesty's Court.

Oh good! I sometimes wear a plain silk or cotton cravat tied with a coachman knot with my black velvet Sheriffmuir doublet and matching or white (actually cream) silk waistcoat. This works fine for very formal black tie. I have not had a white-tie outing since having the Sheriffmuir but I guess that the same outfit should be acceptable. I would probably opt for the white rather than the black waistcoat.

[MacRobert's Reply]

And just to be clear. The cravat is worn over a collarless white shirt with french cuffs. It is doubled round the neck before being tied and can be worn with or without a cravat pin.

[CMcG]

And just to be clear. The cravat is worn over a collarless white shirt with french cuffs. It is doubled round the neck before being tied and can be worn with or without a cravat pin.

Collarless? Like a cadet, mandarin, or grandfather collar? Or how about with a wing collar shirt?

[MacRobert's Reply]

Collarless? Like a cadet, mandarin, or grandfather collar? Or how about with a wing collar shirt?

Yes, like a grandfather shirt that is made so that a collar can be attached with studs at the back and front. Where a top button would normally be are two button holes for the front stud. At the neck it is the same kind of shirt that would be worn with a lace jabot. In fact my old lace jabot (not worn for about 20 years) has two small loops of ribbon on the inside of the neck band so that it can be attached with collar studs to the back and front of the shirt. These shirts with French double cuffs are still made and often used by lawyers in Britain. Mine are made by Revelation. The double cuffs may be a bit of a problem if you want to wear lace cuffs but work fine with a cravat at the neck and cuff links.

I have not worn a cravat with a wing-collar shirt.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The frontice piece of Loudon Macqueen Douglas's book THE KILT published in 1914 shows the author wearing a lace jabot, wing collar, and french cuff shirt. Elsewhere (opposite pg. 33) is a photograph of David Hepburn with lace at the cuff, and a lace jabot tied like a stock, again with a wing collar. From these and other early 20th century photographs, it would seem that it is perfectly acceptable for a jabot or stock to be worn with a collar.

[Bugbear]

What about the jabot with the fold down collar of a dress shirt, like a shirt that would be worn with a tuxedo?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

What about the jabot with the fold down collar of a dress shirt, like a shirt that would be worn with a tuxedo?

There is no reason that a jabot couldn't be worn in this manner. Since the jabot and a five button waistcoat would effectively cover the entire front of the shirt, there would be no need to go to the expense of a tuxedo shirt-- an ordinary white shirt would suffice as well. If lace cuffs, as opposed to french cuffs, were desired, it would be a simple matter to velcro the lace to the inside of the jacket cuff. In that instance one would probably be advised to purchase a shirt with the button cuff and the sleeves one-inch shorter than usual (ie: 32 inch sleeve as opposed to a 33 inch sleeve).

There is an excellent picture of the late, lamented, Panache wearing his Sheriffmuir with the lace cuffs attached to the jacket sleeves somewhere here on the forum--