Sihk kirpan controversy in Quebec

[Lallans]

C'est qui Les Autures?

Peut-être xman a eu un experience different de la meme ville? On trouverais souvent des problemes quand on essaie de faire des generalizations tros grands...

"Les Autres" est le terme universel du Québec pour toute personne qui n'est pas pure laine.

"Pure laine", a punning reference from fibre content labels designating "pure wool," is the term for anyone who is not one of les autres, or in other words pure laine means of original French Canadian stock. And both those terms are in universal use daily.

Anyway, 'nuff said. I just don't like outside experts correcting me about my homeland.

[be da veva]

Oh yeah? You should have seen Montreal 30-40 years ago. It's a small town now, culturally and financially.

I have to agree that about 40 years ago, being an anglophone wouldn't have been easy. We had a political crisis and some terrorists activities.
Hopefully, those days are far behind and the more extremists of québecois won't rely on those kinds of tactics. But yes, there are still some die hard fanatics that could be pushed to that limit. It only takes one to pull the trigger.

I have used the ''maudit anglais'' has a friendly banter to rugby players before or after a game, even during practice sessions. We were the ''sissy frenchmen''. During a game though, what we called each other on the pitch is not to be mentionned here..... BTW, I played for the Montreal Irish, an anglophone team. There are french teams too.

I was born in the early 70s, my generation is more open to cultural exchanges. You could say that we do it cross culturally....

But I guess you have to be here right now to get all the little nuances.

And to paraphrase Gimli in LOTR;
'' An anglophone communicating in french where a quebecois dares not?!?!?!
I'd never hear the end of it...''

Bonne journée à tous et toutes.

À bientôt

[Mike_Oettle]

Eric, you highlight the period when my cousins (boy and girl) were growing up in Montreal.
Their father (South African-born) was very English, but their mother was French (from Paris). They had met when he was working in Brussels, and they later lived in Geneva.
Thinking about the situation this evening it struck me that my cousins must have been very grateful indeed to have learnt French at their mother’s knee, otherwise they would have stuck out like a sore thumb!
Regards,
Mike

[xman]

Have you ever met a Sikh, sir?

Yes indeed! There are many where I live and I can concur that they are largely polite and civilised to a degree that most N. Americans can only dream about. I find it disturbingly odd that the media only ever seem to portray those of a disruptive nature. It doesn't match my experience.

I find your comments a tad disrespectful to a religion and people that are known for their bravery and commitment to freedom.

Please excuse me but I have no respect for religions. Quite the contrary. I do not, however mean to stoke the coals.

Again I must beg to be excused, but I never intended any disrespect to those or any other peoples regardless of how different their sociopolitical position is from mine. I cherish other cultures as an opportunity to learn more about people.

I meant only to point out that regardless of a holy edict to wear the kirpan that there are certainly circumstances when one would not be permitted and that that would be accepted by the devout. Want to fly? Must compromise.

Personally, I think it was culturally insensitive at the least and likely quite bigoted of security to refuse them access to the legislature.

Et bien, tu as passe trois annes la-bas et vous en savez plus que quelqu'un qui a grandi dans cette ville? Tu es tres sage, ou quelque chose. As tu parle avec beaucoup des gens francais ou peut etre seulement aves Les Autures?

Although my training was in English, my school is fully bilingual and I rubbed shoulders with 'the pure wool' several times a day. The School is small and everyone knows everyone. I've had the perplexingly pleasurable experience to drink with separatists on more than one occasion, argue politics with them and still embrace them at night's end. (never received that warm a send off from any Anglo of a different political stripe) I ate copious amounts of Greek food since there are many of Greek heritage living there. I lived in a predominantly Hasidic neighbourhood as well. Montréal, at the very least, is extremely multicultural as you must admit, one of the most multicultural cities in the world to its credit.

[Lallans]

I know people who visit Cuba every winter. Apparently everyone there lives in a resort where the pina coladas are plentiful and free, the food buffet is loaded and available 18 hours a day, and you meet friendly and well rested people from all over the world who are just like you. Seems like quite a remarkable paradise, so I don't understand why people try to swim away from it on inner tubes and rubber air mattresses all the time.

[Jack Daw]

Some Sikhs wear a miniature kirpan attached to the comb in their hair or on a necklace, which satisfies the religious requirement. Kirpans are worn as a symbol of the need to prevent violence by being prepared to intercede rather than standing by when violence occurs. It seems that the solution is fairly simple. Sikhs are required to wear a kirpan (though many secular Sikhs do not), but they do not need to be functional weapons.

I have a Sikh friend who wears a tiny kirpan on a necklace. He said it's small enough not to set off the metal detector at the airport.

[xman]

The saga continues ...

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/st...n-measure.html

[Kilted Canadian]

I think the main problem here is that a good number of Sikhs do indeed carry functional kirpans, which could be easily used as a weapon. One was displayed by a Sikh during an interview on CBC News, and it looked to have a blade of 4-5 inches long, and it was undoubtedly a knife in design, with minimal ornamentation. This was not a small hair ornament worn solely to satsify a religious requirement.

Also, there was in incident several years ago where a Sikh student was found to have used his Kirpan to threaten several classmates in a Montreal school, which likely did nothing to improve the situation, despite the protests of his mother that he could not have simply drawn the weapon, as it was fully wrapped and tucked into his waistband.

The fact that the boy took such measures to draw a weapon on his classmates disturbs me greatly, as does the carrying of any weapon in a governmental or public building by non-government personell( ie RCMP, OPP, CF, etc).

Mind you, I have no problem with the kirpan when worn as shown previously. The issue only arises when it becomes a functional weapon that can be drawn and used. Even though the masses of Sikhs would never do such a thing, one must always be wary for the exception to the rule.

[Dale Seago]

I think the main problem here is that a good number of Sikhs do indeed carry functional kirpans, which could be easily used as a weapon.

And other things.

Some years ago I and my then-wife (whom I trained up to 8th-degree black belt level in the Bujinkan) were as volunteers providing training assistance in patrolling tactics and self-defense to a neighborhood-watch group in San Francisco's Haight-Ashbury district called "Residents Against Drugs", or "RAD". During the course of this we of course went out on patrol with them quite a few nights.

One night a Sikh couple (man & wife) approached our team and thanked us for being there and for the work we were doing. I & my wife glanced at each other, nodded to each other, and I asked them, "Hey, could we talk to you guys over here away from the group for a minute?"

Out of earshot of the team, we introduced ourselves and I handed them my card. I told them we also appreciated THEM being around for the safety of their community, and assured them that neither I nor my wife had any problem with the fact that they were carrying concealed firearms; nor would we tell anyone.

Their eyes widened and they were speechless for a bit; then the husband simply thanked us.

Some months after that they got in touch with us (had my card, remember?) and we got together for a wonderful dinner. We explained the things that had tipped us off -- which, frankly, most law enforcement professionals would not have picked up -- showed them how they could do it better, etc. That being a night when we were not in any sort of "under public scrutiny" role, as I recall we also showed them what we were carrying, which definitely trumped their own stuff.

BTW, I and my ex have both been in positions where, though civilians, we were legally "carrying firearms for a living". I ain't sayin' whether or not this was one of those occasions, but I did want to mention that.

[Lallans]

In our national news today is the information that kirpans are now finally and officially banned from the Quebec legislature. There is a comment from the house leader that while multiculturalism may be practiced in Canada it is not a policy in Quebec. Point finale! (Quebec french for that's it, period!)