formal evening dress: vest or no?

[OC Richard]

This whole thread does make me wonder why Prince Charlies are nearly always sold and worn with a waistcoat, while at least around here Tuxedos are usually worn with a cummerbund instead.

Back in the 80's and early 90's when I was piping at a lot more weddings than I do now I actually went out an bought a nice matching cummerbund and bow tie set in black.

I did this because nearly all the weddings had the men in black Tuxedos and black bow ties and cummerbunds, and to wear waistcoat would make me clash.

I discovered that the best-matching thing was white Churchill/wing collar shirt, black bow tie and cummerbund, and black Argyll/Braemar/Crail jacket. I wore the cummerbund instead of waistcoat with my Prince Charlie as well.

I haven't done that for many years! For the last few years it's been charcoal grey hose and matching shirt with black long tie and black Argyll jacket, which is fairly neutral and unobjectionable.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

This whole thread does make me wonder why Prince Charlies are nearly always sold and worn with a waistcoat, while at least around here Tuxedos are usually worn with a cummerbund instead.

The simple answer is that before the cummerbund became common place, gentlemen always wore waistcoats with their dinner jackets, and this applied with equal measure to wearing a waistcoat with their Prince Charlie coatee.

It matters not that tuxedos are worn with cummerbunds because tuxedos (like a cowboy's woolly angora chaps) are not part of traditional Highland attire-- even if the cummerbund and bow tie are tartan. If a kilted gentleman chooses to not wear a waistcoat on formal occasions, then it is properly replaced by a dirk belt with a silver, or silver coloured, belt plate.

If one is going to wear a PC then one should stick with wearing a waistcoat. If one is wearing a dress Argyll jacket the choice is either a waistcoat, or dirk belt. The cummerbund properly belongs with the dinner jacket and trousers of the country club set, or as part of a mess kit worn in accordance with military or naval regulations.

[CMcG]

<snip>The cummerbund properly belongs with the dinner jacket and trousers of the country club set, or as part of a mess kit worn in accordance with military or naval regulations.

Such as the Australian Army Scottish Mess Dress White Jacket, which specifies a Corps cummberbund. Click on the image for more info or larger pics:

[Jock Scot]

With the greatest of repect to the Australian Army, military dress regulations have little to do with civilian Highland attire which is worn out of choice.

[CMcG]

With the greatest of repect to the Australian Army, military dress regulations have little to do with civilian Highland attire which is worn out of choice.

Thank goodness, eh? With no disrespect to the Australian Army Scottish Mess Dress White Jacket, it just isn't my style.

I posted that as an example to MoR's comment that a cummerbund is required by the mess kit regulations of some militaries.

[Jock Scot]

Thank goodness, eh? With no disrespect to the Australian Army Scottish Mess Dress White Jacket, it just isn't my style.

I posted that as an example to MoR's comment that a cummerbund is required by the mess kit regulations of some militaries.

You illustrate his point perfectly.

[MacLowlife]

Not to muddy the waters, but the PC seems to me to be directly related to the Saxon white tie tailcoat, which is usually worn with a waistcoat. I believe the cummerbund derives from sashes. There may be some connection or there may not.

I notice the Australian solider above is also wearing a sash- not a waist-style sash, but an across the body sash. Does anyone have any experience with such sashes, other than for merit badges?

Is an across the body sash usually made in a loop ( as with the BSA model) or is it a wide ribbon with a closure at the bottom. PLEASE NOTE, I am not talking of tartan sashes, but of the King Edward variety, usually worn as an insignia for some order...

[Macman]

MacLowlife, it's a Sergeant's sash. They're worn in the Commonwealth forces, are red, and denote Sergeants, Warrant Officers, etc. I've never worn one, so I'll leave it to someone else to give more detail.

[Zardoz]

Not to muddy the waters, but the PC seems to me to be directly related to the Saxon white tie tailcoat, which is usually worn with a waistcoat. I believe the cummerbund derives from sashes. There may be some connection or there may not.

The cummerbund was first introduced in the late 1880s as a silk sash that was wrapped around the waist, possibly inspired by military sashes from India and the British officers serving there. It went away after a few years then returned in the 1920s in it's current form as a tuxedo accessory.

[macwilkin]

Thank goodness, eh? With no disrespect to the Australian Army Scottish Mess Dress White Jacket, it just isn't my style.

Of course, think about the weather of your present location as opposed to Australia's, and the white mess dress jacket becomes very appropriate. Members of the masonic lodge in Australia wear a similar style of white formal jacket in the Summer months for their meetings for a similar reason.

T.