How small is too small-box pleated Black watch

**WClarkB** · 27th February 10, 03:10 PM

Your wisdom is requested.

I have some very heavy 18 oz double wide BW which is enough to make a knife pleated kilt or two. I was thinking that, persuaded by Matt Newsome's arguments, a 4 yrd box-pleated kilt would be a good summer wear addition, lighter but enough Substance to Swish (STS parameter). The material is indeed beautiful.

Having never pleated to stripe I was anxious to do that. Splits are 21.5 / 19.5 and 21.5/22.5. The sett is 5 3/8" (136mm) and if I go one a sett (ie strip) then I get 12 pleats but only 45 mm wide (less than 2 inches by 6 mm). If I go to the recommended method: 1.5 setts I get 8 pleats of 2+ inchs per pleat and the pattern "approximates" the sett.

MY QUESTION:
how important is the "no pleating less than 2 inches" rule for the box pleat?
8 large pleats sounds unattractive compared to twelve smaller ones. This is my 3rd kilt.

**chasem** · 27th February 10, 03:20 PM

It's not crucial to not have pleats less than 2" wide, but I think in a box pleat, they really do look better when they're wider.

I have a Black Watch from heavy weight material (either 18oz or 21oz, don't recall). I box pleated it, and the pleats are 2.25" or so at the hips, 2" at the waist, pleated to the sett. It looks pretty good pleated that way, and I wouldn't really want pleats much narrower than that (in a box pleated kilt)

**Pleater** · 27th February 10, 03:26 PM

From information gleaned from studying pleat shots - (just for educational purposes of course), the box pleated kilt is normally composed of panels with a strong feature of the sett placed centrally, being the visible face of the inverted pleats.

There are far fewer panels than is usual in a knife pleated kilt, and as the panels taper towards the waist usually the shaped edges are placed in a fairly featureless part of the sett so as not to draw attention to vanishing or narrowing stripes.

I believe that I have seen box pleated kilts with just six panels - perhaps even as few as five, though the search feature might bring up any number of photos, and I am sure those fortunate enough to have had box pleated kilts made for them by the experts will provide more information.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

**slohairt** · 27th February 10, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by WClarkB

Your wisdom is requested.

I have some very heavy 18 oz double wide BW which is enough to make a knife pleated kilt or two. I was thinking that, persuaded by Matt Newsome's arguments, a 4 yrd box-pleated kilt would be a good summer wear addition, lighter but enough Substance to Swish (STS parameter). The material is indeed beautiful.

Having never pleated to stripe I was anxious to do that. Splits are 21.5 / 19.5 and 21.5/22.5. The sett is 5 3/8" (136mm) and if I go one a sett (ie strip) then I get 12 pleats but only 45 mm wide (less than 2 inches by 6 mm). If I go to the recommended method: 1.5 setts I get 8 pleats of 2+ inchs per pleat and the pattern "approximates" the sett.

MY QUESTION:
how important is the "no pleating less than 2 inches" rule for the box pleat?
8 large pleats sounds unattractive compared to twelve smaller ones. This is my 3rd kilt.

Are you sure your measuring the sett correctly? 5 3/8" seems incredibly small for 18 oz. Black Watch. Black Watch in that weight is only readily available from two mills: Robert Noble and the House of Edgar. I can't recall the repeat size on Noble's fabric off-hand, but on the House of Edgar's 18 oz. Black Watch it is 34 cm (about 13.4 inches.).

People often make the mistake of measuring Black Watch by measuring from one black line within the green to the next. Is this what you've done? You need to also include the blue sections; the one with a single set of tramlines and the next with the double set. So, the repeat would be green section, single black tramlines set in blue, green section, double black tramlines set in blue, green section. Does this make sense?

**M. A. C. Newsome** · 27th February 10, 06:56 PM

The problem with narrow pleats in a traditonally made 4 yard box pleated kilt is that the depth of the pleats is only approximately half of the width of the visible pleat reveal. So a 2" wide pleat is only 1" deep, in other words.

Any pleat more narrow than 2" will have a very shallow pleat, and it will be much more difficult to get it to maintain its shape.

Of course you can have a more narrow box pleat and not necessarily sacrifice pleat depth by including more yardage in the kilt. In this case the pleat on one side of the pleat will be rather deep, and the other side will be shallow. This is, in essence, the "military box pleat" of today.

There is nothing wrong with having 8 pleats. Most of my personal kilts have either 8 or 9 pleats. Looks perfectly fine in a box pleated kilt.

**WClarkB** · 27th February 10, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by slohairt

Are you sure your measuring the sett correctly? 5 3/8" seems incredibly small for 18 oz. Black Watch. Black Watch in that weight is only readily available from two mills: Robert Noble and the House of Edgar. I can't recall the repeat size on Noble's fabric off-hand, but on the House of Edgar's 18 oz. Black Watch it is 34 cm (about 13.4 inches.).

People often make the mistake of measuring Black Watch by measuring from one black line within the green to the next. Is this what you've done? You need to also include the blue sections; the one with a single set of tramlines and the next with the double set. So, the repeat would be green section, single black tramlines set in blue, green section, double black tramlines set in blue, green section. Does this make sense?

ooops huhhhh! (strikes forhead repeatedly after looking for the tramlines) correction 10 7/8 inches. Thank you from the bottom of my (rather dense and unobservant ) heart.

walt

**WClarkB** · 27th February 10, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome

The problem with narrow pleats in a traditonally made 4 yard box pleated kilt is that the depth of the pleats is only approximately half of the width of the visible pleat reveal. So a 2" wide pleat is only 1" deep, in other words.

Any pleat more narrow than 2" will have a very shallow pleat, and it will be much more difficult to get it to maintain its shape.

Of course you can have a more narrow box pleat and not necessarily sacrifice pleat depth by including more yardage in the kilt. In this case the pleat on one side of the pleat will be rather deep, and the other side will be shallow. This is, in essence, the "military box pleat" of today.

There is nothing wrong with having 8 pleats. Most of my personal kilts have either 8 or 9 pleats. Looks perfectly fine in a box pleated kilt.

ahh, had not thought of the depth factor and that does explain rather well the reason for the oddness of the military box pleat. As it is I completely missed the actual sett size (vide supra) so it is back to the drawing board and your recommendations (ie to the 3/4 sett in this size) BTW it was indeed a pleasure to meet you if ever so briefly at Stone mountain.
walt

**turpin** · 27th February 10, 10:19 PM

I have an 18 oz. box pleat in Gordon. The set repeat is 14 inches and as it is BW based, You might measure again, from single tramline to single tramline. The pleats are about 2 inches wide, and there are 11 of them.

**Kiltman** · 28th February 10, 09:41 PM

I usually study the sett and decide what will work well. If you're pleating to stripe there is no reason that you can't pleat to two different strips as long as you have enough depth, or maybe you might do that to get enough pleat depth. You might also try to do a double box pleat.

**meinfs** · 4th March 10, 06:54 PM

I know you've resolved this question already but I wanted to comment on your statement: "8 large pleats sounds unattractive compared to ..."

I've made about seven or so box-pleated kilts that have 6, 7 or 8 pleats of about 3 inches wide. They are certainly not unattractive! Here's a recent example.

Good luck with your Black Watch project.