Correctness of Gaelic mottos on badges, etc.

[Tobus]

I was reading the thread about the Sterling silver badges in the STM Gift Shop forum, and had a question. In keeping with our newly-clarified Rule #11, I'm starting a new thread here so as not to take that thread off of its original topic. If this isn't the correct forum for this, please feel free to move it.

A snippet from MacSpadger's excellent review of his new badge:

I am very pleased with the central casting in particular, which seems to be modelled on the image found in
W.A Johnston's book The Scottish Clans & Their Tartans.

To compare, here is a pic of the new badge next to one from the early 1900's, which is very chunky in comparison, (as well as having it's sharper detail blurred through over a century of wear and polishing).

First, MacSpadger, thank you for the side-by-side comparison. Your new badge looks superb!

In looking at the difference between the two badges, I couldn't help but notice that the motto is different between them. The new one matches exactly the image from Johnston's book in stating "CREAG AN FHITICH", where the older badge says "CREAGAN AN FHITICH".

I've noticed a similar phenomenon with other Gaelic mottos applied to different items. Sometimes the separate word "an" gets tacked onto the end of the first word, then repeated as a separate word. Does this actually mean something, or is it just a mistake? I have only a passing knowledge of Gaelic (and by that I mean it passes right over my head!).

I seem to recall a somewhat similar discussion a while back on the "Clann na Gael" phrase often found on buttons, but I can't find that thread now. So I can't recall if this was actually addressed there or if it's a separate issue.

[Macman]

I've noticed a similar thing with French mottos as well, Tobus. Clan Oliphant's motto on various crests can be found as "A TOUT POUVOIR", "TOUT POURVOIR", and various combinations thereof. My French knowledge is not so good that I can tell if they have different meanings.

Edit: Oops! Just got back from the weekend and saw the amended Rule #12. Mods, if my post is too far OT (not being Gaelic mottos), feel free to remove it.

[castledangerous]

"an" means "the" It shouldn't be tacked on, and then repeated, but it this case, creagan is the plural of creag. So in one version, it is the The Raven's Rocks, and in the other, The Raven's Rock (or Cliff)

[MacSpadger]

The simple answer is that Gaelic has not stood still as a language and been through a series of reforms and standardisations, old books and maps show that the Latin alphabet was used in a fairly random manner at times. There have been a number of changes to the spellings in the 20th century. I began learning Gàidhlig in 1970, when I was 10, at the Aberdeen Academy. At that time a form of standardisation had already happened, and my teacher, who was from Lewis, had to teach us the Skye and Western Highland manner, which was not natural to him.
We were initially taught phonetically, as it was thought that the spelling would be too complicated. This was in Scotland, a native language being deemed too difficult for the natives by "authorities" who did not have a grasp of it!
However, not long after this, spellings changed again, so it was all academic anyway. There have been further changes in the 21st century.
However, back to the badges.
Creagan is simply the plural of creag.
I'd say that the newer badge is the more accurate one, as Creag an Fhitich more or less translates as the Raven's Rock or Raven's Crag, although I would use the spelling fhithich, (although fitheach is probably more commonly used nowadays).
The fhitich spelling does turn up in texts from the 1800's, (Tha gliocas an ceann an fhitich-There is wisdom in a raven's head ) so is acceptable to me, considering the source.
Creagan an Fhithich is often given in books and online as meaning the raven's rock, but it's more precisely the raven's rocks, not that it's a big difference. That's my understanding of it anyway.
To add further to the spelling, a book that once belonged to a MacDonnell of Glengarry chief in 1757 (Confession of Faith, currently in the NLS) has an armorial plate bearing the slogan Craggan an fhithich. From time to time this spelling surfaces on items too. This silver badge from 1921 was on Ebay just last week.

[Tobus]

Excellent replies, gentlemen! Answered my questions perfectly.

It's this kind of variation that really makes things interesting.

[neloon]

It needs to be remembered that, unlike tartan, a clan crest has armorial significance.
See for example
http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/242.html
I am not sure whether or not the spelling of the motto should always be in exactly its original form whatever that was. For example, the Fraser motto "Je suis prest" is Norman French rather than modern French.

[creagdhubh]

The simple answer is that Gaelic has not stood still as a language and been through a series of reforms and standardisations, old books and maps show that the Latin alphabet was used in a fairly random manner at times. There have been a number of changes to the spellings in the 20th century. I began learning Gàidhlig in 1970, when I was 10, at the Aberdeen Academy. At that time a form of standardisation had already happened, and my teacher, who was from Lewis, had to teach us the Skye and Western Highland manner, which was not natural to him.
We were initially taught phonetically, as it was thought that the spelling would be too complicated. This was in Scotland, a native language being deemed too difficult for the natives by "authorities" who did not have a grasp of it!
However, not long after this, spellings changed again, so it was all academic anyway. There have been further changes in the 21st century.
However, back to the badges.
Creagan is simply the plural of creag.
I'd say that the newer badge is the more accurate one, as Creag an Fhitich more or less translates as the Raven's Rock or Raven's Crag, although I would use the spelling fhithich, (although fitheach is probably more commonly used nowadays).
The fhitich spelling does turn up in texts from the 1800's, (Tha gliocas an ceann an fhitich-There is wisdom in a raven's head ) so is acceptable to me, considering the source.
Creagan an Fhithich is often given in books and online as meaning the raven's rock, but it's more precisely the raven's rocks, not that it's a big difference. That's my understanding of it anyway.
To add further to the spelling, a book that once belonged to a MacDonnell of Glengarry chief in 1757 (Confession of Faith, currently in the NLS) has an armorial plate bearing the slogan Craggan an fhithich. From time to time this spelling surfaces on items too. This silver badge from 1921 was on Ebay just last week.

***

[OC Richard]

This comes up around here because we have a load of Fire Dept Pipe Bands, who tend to use misspelt Gaelic mottoes.

A guy who used to come over to my house for lessons was joining the Orange County Fire Authority Pipes & Drums and he had a music binder from the band which had a logo which said

Onior do na Mardh

which he had been told means "Honour the Fallen".

I tried to get him to understand that there was no such word as "onior" (it violates Gaelic spelling conventions anyhow), that the word was onoir; that the word "mardh" was a misspelt marbh which means "a dead one", in other words is singular, and it would make more sense to use the plural mairbh. I told him that, as far as I know, using the word "fallen" as a euphemism for "dead" was a specifically English thing and that in Gaelic using such a word would refer to somebody who had fallen down but was still very much alive; thus the word mairbh.

Here's a thread on another forum which I started about this, with a response by somebody who knows a heck of a lot more about Gaelic that I do, and a response which suggests using a native Gaelic word rather than the borrowed onoir, for those who might be interested

http://forums.bobdunsire.com/forums/...ighlight=marbh

BTW whether it was my input, or somebody else's, the Orange County Fire Authority Pipes and Drums did change the spelling on their logo shorty after that, as you can see on their current website

http://www.ocfapipesanddrums.org/

[MacSpadger]

Another nonsensical one I have seen in the US is fir na tine which literally translates as men of fire, in that the men are composed of or made of/from fire. I have seen fir na tine used in the US, but I've never seen it in Ireland or Scotland, but fir dóiteáin is very common.
Fireman = fear doiteáin
Firemen = fir dóiteáin
Firefighters = comhraiceoir dóiteáin
No "fir na tine".
I may have mentioned this before, but you have to be very careful with these translations, back in the early days of a bagpipe forum I frequesnt, someone asked for a translation for "Men of the thin blue line" for a "Celtic" US police pipe band, and was presented with a mish mash of Scots Gaelic and Irish Gaeilge that translated as "I copulate with thin blue men". No joke, I wonder if it's on a drum head somewhere?

[auld argonian]

I may have mentioned this before, but you have to be very careful with these translations, back in the early days of a bagpipe forum I frequesnt, someone asked for a translation for "Men of the thin blue line" for a "Celtic" US police pipe band, and was presented with a mish mash of Scots Gaelic and Irish Gaeilge that translated as "I copulate with thin blue men". No joke, I wonder if it's on a drum head somewhere?

God, I certainly hope so!

Best

AA