formal evening dress: vest or no?

[Bugbear]

Ted the Jabot is really another step up the formal scale, in the white tie league, and is normally worn with a "Montrose", or perhaps the versitile "Sheriffmuir". I don't think that wearing a jabot with a PC would be quite right.

Thanks, Jock.

I'm having to unlearn some things suddenly.

I think it is time for me to stand back from the formal Highland attire discussions, now.

[JSFMACLJR]

Because, let's face it, the really traditional way to wear tartan includes wearing two or three or four at once and quite possibly without any notion of clan significance. That is assuming you go for such newfangled innovations as loomed cloth, instead of good old traditional fur.

Having said all of that and raised a few hackles, I WILL say that I believe a tartan cummerbund with a tartan kilt is probably asking for trouble.

Shouldn't that be "the really HISTORICAL way to wear tartan"?

[JSFMACLJR]

Thanks, Jock.

I'm having to unlearn some things suddenly.

I think it is time for me to stand back from the formal Highland attire discussions, now.

Please don't, Ted! I, for one, value your insight.

[Bugbear]

Please don't, Ted! I, for one, value your insight.

Thanks. It is a little difficult to deal with having learned that the jabot can be worn with any of the formal highland jackets, including the formal dress Argyle, then suddenly several people are saying it is for white tie and only to be worn with the doublets other than the PC.

When MacMillan of Rathdown has told me, directly, that the jabot can be properly worn with either a dress Argyle or a PC, along with the high throat waistcoat, or even an Eton jacket, I end up feeling that I am being singled out for his information, rather than the arguement being taken to him. He has been discussing this, here on the forum, for years now. I know very little about Highland attire, beyond what has been discussed on the forum.

[Jock Scot]

Ted what you are seeing between Sandy and me and no doubt M o R too is a minor difference in detail nothing more. It is no different than you deciding to wear a straw hat to keep off the sun and your neighbour, just down the road, choosing to wear a "John Deere" hat. It is only details that we are talking about, not the basic principles. Thank goodness for these variations of the same theme, it would be no good if we all dressed like peas in a pod, now would it?

[thescot]

I would advise never wearing the five-button vest with a PC. And that scrunchy thing, well it's just not even worth discussing.

I almost always agree with Jock, MoR, and JSFMACLJR. But I must say that I do not care for the beltless look if there is no waistcoat. I think I have only worn a PC sans waistcoat one time, and I had a black belt with sllver waist plate at the time; it was mostly due to hot weather, as I recall, and I kind of like the look even though I rarely emply it. (Heavy emphasis on "kind of" since I am not completely sold on it.)

And the PC with belt but no waistcoat seems to be a very clean look. A starched white shirt is part of the overall balck tie look, I think, and both the belt and three-button waistcoat allow it to be seen. So, stick with the basics and tradition and you'll always be thought well-dressed. As Jock pointed out, the differences are quite minor.

[Zardoz]

Ted, CMcG, I think the bottom line on a lot of this stuff is that there is no bottom line.

While you, or anyone, should certainly take the advice, opinions, and/or photographic evidence from members of this forum into consideration when thinking about your Highlandwear choices, let them help you to make YOUR choices about YOUR personal style, not dictate them. Let the examples here be your guides, not your gospel. Like Jock said, it would be no fun if we all dressed alike.

The question CMcG asked about the PC/waistcoat/belt/cravat etc. issue in his OP is a good example, while there is a consensus about those issues in this thread, one does not have to look far on the interwebs to find lots of conflicting info. You can likely google-up a bunch of photos, various websites, and even older threads on this forum, to support any of the different options mentioned.

[MacLowlife]

I like the jabot and look forward to seeing people wear it, be it for white or black tie, or just because it is so much fun to mess with people ( Epater les Bourgeoises). And, to some degree, a lot of this discussion is like Fantasy Football- we do wear these things, but many of us describe them more than we actually put them on.

I hope I am wrong there.

And wrong is probably what I am about Traditional vs Historical, especially in THIS forum, but I think it is useful to remember that Traditional either evolves or it is merely another word for Historical.

I expect a handy and practical trick is to find a picture of the outfit one contemplates, many of which are above, and to ask oneself "Will that look good on me? Do I like the way that looks?" And there is your answer. We all seem to agree about the ruche tie and the 5 button waistcoat, but millions of Chavs can't be wrong, can they?

As DLP said about my own folly, de gustibus non est disputandem.

[sfb]

I smiled when I saw this from MacLowlife earlier, because it strikes a chord with me: "what looks good can also be influenced by fashion, but it is not necessarily bound by rules, other than some theoretical rules of aesthetics and usually by common sense.... So, if Duncan Alexander or Grant Walker or Campbell MacDonald decides to wear one tartan around his neck and another one around his waist, I would suggest the real question is "Do you really want to mix red, burgundy, and orange?" rather than "Where are the tartan police when we really need them?"

I'd just add that if I was about to leave the house wearing a mixture of red burgundy & orange, then my beloved would probably be having a quiet word with me before I got out the door. I can't be the only one on here who bows to a higher authority when it comes to sartorial colour clashes in public, even if it is traditional to ignore them when you're wearing the kilt.

Oh, and...

Ted, CMcG, I think the bottom line on a lot of this stuff is that there is no bottom line.

While you, or anyone, should certainly take the advice, opinions, and/or photographic evidence from members of this forum into consideration when thinking about your Highlandwear choices, let them help you to make YOUR choices about YOUR personal style, not dictate them. Let the examples here be your guides, not your gospel. Like Jock said, it would be no fun if we all dressed alike.

...aye, what he said.

I've got a wedding to go to in Glasgow on Friday. Aberdeen groom, Lanarkshire bride. I predict an eclectic selection of lounge suits; proper old fashioned Heilan' jackets; loads of Prince Charlies, and at least one Charcoal tweed day jacket. Which'll be me, as I bought it specially because I think my Argyll with the silvery buttons is a bit formal. However, I'll thereafter be annoying some folk because I'll be wearing my dress sporran with it, to turn up the whole "dressed up" effect a wee bit.

As MacLowlife suggests - I like the way it looks. And, more importantly, so does my partner, so I'll be allowed out.

[Jordan]

We all seem to agree about the ruche tie and the 5 button waistcoat, but millions of Chavs can't be wrong, can they?

If millions of chav's jumped off a cliff would you follow them?

Am I the only one who would prefer to take my jacket off if it’s too warm than wear my PC without a waistcoat?

And Ted if you want to wear a jabot with an argyle or PC for anything formal I would say go for it.

Jordan