Got in trouble for being kilted at work

[KiltedGirl]

Well, first off, I'm a "she" ;-)

And my point was exactly what I said, and what a few people said - the double standard. That manager wouldn't dare tell a Muslim woman to take off a head scarf, an Indian to remove a turban or anything else like that. It's very easy to "target" the people who are the "majority." but a white guy in a kilt? Fair game. I'm guessing a black guy in a kilt wouldn't fair much better honestly but if you went to work in traditional African clothing nope I seriously doubt you'd be brought into the managers office repeatedly.

I'm truly sorry if you didn't read my intended meaning in my last post. I did not mean to offend, merely point out that "cultural sensitivity" is often unfairly enforced in our culture. Obviously people here who wear kilts aren't going to "point fingers" at someone else wearing a traditional outfit, no matter what that tradition is.

[Nighthawk]

Being a Black man and gay, I often hear or read the statements others make that are at the least stupid and at worse offensive, even if the person who made the comment is oblivious to the those perceptions.
The point I don't like is other people stepping in to explain what the other person was trying to say. He said it, let him explain it.

Well, if you don't want the conversation to evolve organically among multiple people, then take it to PM. Otherwise, it's gonna. Topic changes in conversation are normal and natural.

[CDNSushi]

Back ON-topic....

I understand and realize that there are many libertarians on this forum -- people who take their personal freedoms and the rights of others very seriously. That is naturally a good thing. There's a reason why there are laws in the U.S. that protect religious and cultural expression, and other laws that make it necessary to accommodate those with special needs (like the Americans with Disabilities Act). Nothing wrong with that.

However, human nature will always prevail and let me state it bluntly: just because a law book says you have the RIGHT to do something doesn't mean everyone thinks you should. Whether or not you take it upon yourself to show such a person the error of their ways is really what's at stake here.

I don't think anyone here denies that we should have the RIGHT to wear a kilt to work (based on cultural diversity, freedom of expression, et cetera, and barring safety issues or other hazards), but to what extent is it wise to push for that right?

Remember, that the OP's manager used the word unprofessional to describe the kilt. What that tells me, is that everything else is moot. Invoking HR (or in this case, NOT invoking HR) is simply just the manager's attempt to legitimize his opinion that wearing a kilt is unprofessional. Perhaps he thinks it looks unmasculine. Maybe he just thinks men wearing kilts look strange. Maybe he feels that employees should all look a certain way. We don't know. What we DO know is that all the HR personnel in the world, with all the employee handbooks, and all the company policies, and all the individual protection laws, and all the ACLU activists in the world are most likely irrelevant unless they directly address why he dislikes kilts. They may well be able to FORCE the manager to comply and allow the OP to wear his kilt, but that doesn't mean that the manager will like it. Plus, if he is shown to be wrong, he will have lost face, which means he will like it even less.

So when it comes to working for a manager who: a) STILL thinks you are dressed inappropriately when b) he has been dressed down by top brass and c) has been made to lose face in front of everyone.... What are the chances that it will remain a pleasant place to work? Very little, I would say.

I know it may be distasteful to do so, but just put yourself in the manager's shoes. Think about it from his perspective. You've just arrived at work, and the first thing you see is one of your employees dressed unprofessionally. You've spoken to him about it but he asserts that he already cleared it with HR and they said it was okay. So you tell him that you'll put up with it just this day, but to please not come dressed like that in the future...

You think that's the end of it, but a few days later you get a call from an HR manager at head office who wants to talk to you about cultural diversity. You learn that someone in your store has been causing trouble for you at head office and going over your head. And now, they are telling you that you don't have the right to stop YOUR employees from expressing themselves, in spite of the fact that it would make them look like complete clowns, embarrassing you, and making the store look like a joke! Not to mention the fact that now, every time this guy looks like crap, all the other staff will look at YOU and think that YOU'RE the bad guy... How does that make you feel about that employee that started this whole mess? What's going to go through your head each time you have to look at him? Human nature says you're probably going to be pretty resentful and not like him very much after that...

Anyway, I'm not saying NOT to fight this. I'm not saying DON'T go to HR and get the official go-ahead to wear a kilt. But just realize that by doing so, you may end up alienating the manager, and making your overall work situation a lot less pleasant than before. Ergo, consider very carefully whether this is a fight really worth fighting. It IS possible in cases like this to win the battle but lose the war.

[O'Callaghan]

Everybody has their own bottom line, and they are all different.

As a matter of fact, a lot of people on this forum are quite reactionary, which is to say they are just the sort that don't really believe employees have, or should have, rights. Even if they pay lip service, they really think your boss should be able to fire you in an arbitrary way. You know who you are, the ones that think that.

My own philosophy is that clothing is something you can change, and so I'm willing to do so. Not everyone is. I used to work with someone who wore a leather jacket when he was supposed to wear a suit. I'm talking about the sort of leather jacket that looks like a sports jacket in cut, not a motorcycle jacket. I suppose if only he had worn matching leather trousers he would have complied with the dress code, although it's hard to imagine how the bosses would have reacted to that. Anyway, he never backed down and he was never fired, but he got plenty of verbal complaints from our bosses.

OTOH, I have long hair, and I'm not talking just over the ears, but down to my waist. If anyone told me I had to cut it to stay employed, I would tell them where to go, because it takes years to grow it that long. I'm afraid that many of those who tell you not to wear a kilt if it annoys the boss would be just as likely to tell you to get a haircut if that were the issue.

Where I work the dress code does not allow men to wear kilts, just because the male and female dress codes are a lot different, and whoever wrote them simply didn't conceive that a man might want to wear a lower garment that didn't have two legs in it. Is this wrong? Yes, it's gender discrimination. However, I can put up with it. That doesn't mean I think that everyone should have to, or that someone who breaks such a rule is in any way wrong.

In this case the OP has had confirmation from HR that his dress code does allow men to wear kilts. That makes it a horse of a different colour. His immediate boss is clearly in the wrong. Maybe wearing a kilt once a year on Tartan Day could be a compromise, and perhaps could be followed by sneaking in a few other days that have the right ethnic connection. If the OP would be satisfied with that.

I am not even a tiny bit Scottish, although I do in fact have living relatives in Scotland, including one who wears a kilt regularly, but they are cousins. I do have Irish blood, though, and kilts have been worn by Irish pipers and Irish nationalists for a long time. Did any of my Irish ancestors ever wear a kilt? I don't think so, but that doesn't mean I can't. If I were to claim Irish ancestry as a reason to wear one, I don't think it should matter whether others in my family have ever done so.

[GreenDragon]

Any news on this situation, Failed God?

[Cowher]

Those who say it wise to not fight use the same reasoning. Don't fight it because if you do your manager will resent you.
When the English government raised taxes and heightened the grip on the colonists, the colonists dumped the tea into the ocean. When the Egyptian people had enough of their government overbearing on their lives they revolted. No matter what country or back ground we are from we have examples of people fighting for what is right or fair in their minds. Regardless of the difficulties they may have to endure. This issue is bigger than mr manager it's about right and wrong. If the manager is wrong then he needs to be corrected regardless of if he will like it.
CDNSushi: I know what you are saying about how the manager will feel. But let's kick this back to let's say 200 years ago. You can say the same thing about a slave owner. He thinks his slaves are only good for working. What do you think he would feel about his slaves eating with him or sitting next to him? Or maybe you can think back to history class when in the old west Asians were looked at as disgusting clowns? Is it right to be disgusted that a black person can eat with you? Is it right for some one to abuse a asian and make him into a fool? NO!!! Will the offending party be resentful? Ya darn right they will! But who cares? Freedom of the slaves has nothing to do with the slave owners. It has to do with the oppression of a people.
What I'm trying to say is if people were always afraid of what the "manager" was going to think no one would have much freedom at all.

[Failed God]

Our company has an "aware line" that is set up for issues such as this or problems in the working environment. It can be completely anonymous (obviously not in my situation). But i did make a call to this line and talked to them i was told i was correct and was within dress code also the hr person on the other side of the line interpreted the managers comments as threatening (the comments about next time i wear it and such). Hr told me they were going to have to call him and have a talk with him. Also the store level person that told me it was ok to wear told me later the same day the manager got a call and was told the kilt was perfectly acceptable.


I understand every ones advice and i agree with a lot of the points made And i know by calling the line i made myself a target but this isn't the first problem ive had with said manager and im far from the only one who has had problems with him. i know of 3 times hr has been called on him in the last 2 months. I have held my tongue on a few occasions when the manager has done or said something inappropriate to me. He basically called me dumb in front of a dozen coworkers. When he first started at our store i was already working there and one of the first things he did was question all the managers about my pierced ears. Any way i truely believe i should be allowed to wear the kilt if i so choose. And i did take it a little further because i believe it should be allowed but also because it is just one to many things to hold my tongue on and allow him to get away with.

[AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH]

Any one can wear a kilt.I've said it before.To wear anything at all that is outside what is concidered 'normal' takes commitment. To have the ability to walk out your front door wearing something that you know may draw more attention to you than what you would prefer but to do it anyway because you want to stick to your own decision shows character.(Or that you are a flamboyant exhibitionist,i guess)Failed god,our o.p, i salute your determination.

It can be hard on this forum to put an idea across because it's easy to be miss read when you're not face to face.We can't see each other or even tell what tone things are said in.But if we did not care about what we are saying we would not bother.

I care about the scottish heritage in my family.It's been there as i grew up and it has led me to so many good things.Even how to understand other people with different heritages better.If you love something you are happy to see others enjoying it ,but at times you can also feel protective of it.So when you feel someone who seems to know very little about this family background is going around making a big song and dance about issues that he or she does not really know about in regards to your culture i feel like saying,

"Hold on.Being correct about this does matter, because it is a statement about a nation of people,and those of thier descendants who want to continue certain customs within thier families that honour that heritage."

If you're a wee green man from mars you can wear the kilt.If you are scottish or from a scottish background you can wear it.The only time i suddenly start caring about HOW you wear it is when you go around saying 'it's my scottish culture to wear this' and there you are wearing it in a way that is YOUR RIGHT to wear it ,but is not the SCOTTISH CULTURAL way to wear it.

Educate yourself is the best way.Find out what is concidered normal and correct in scotland itself and by scottish people themselves.IF, i repeat IF you are wanting to honour the scottish in your family when wearing the kilt then shouldn't how the scots wear the kilt themselves be a good indication to follow?

Please note this is not an 'us and them' rant.It's not about who can or cant.It's an appeal from someone to whom the scottish national dress symbolizes so much that is dear,whom when wearing the kilt does so proudly to honour family.The appeal is to show respect to the culture IF you are going to connect yourself to it.(However if wearing the kilt to you has nothing to do with scottish culture then that is your call)

IT IS YOUR RIGHT to wear it any way you feel like.But start publicly labeling your efforts as a decision to continue scottish culture in your family and all of a suden there is the feelings and traditions of scottish people and those proudly from them to concider.In which case you owe it to yourself and them to get your facts right and to get to know how scottish people feel about it,and how they believe it should be worn.

Interesting notes: When i lived and worked in scotland i saw no one wearing thier kilt fulltime.Not to say full time wearing is wrong,just that for anyone living outside of scotland who fondly believes that wearing a kilt full time is somehow proving how scottish he is,he is dreaming.

When the average scot thinks of someone,particularly someone not born bred and living in scotland ,wearing the kilt FULL TIME out of choice and not because of your job,etc they think your either pretty different or a foriegner 'trying too hard to be scottish'

I never saw any proof of the kilt degenerating into being concidered a 'costume' by any scots.though they may only bring it out on occasions that range from the serious to the lighthearted,ie a celerbration,it is worn with pride and the knowledge that it is thier national dress.

I saw no proof,from a scottish cultural or heritage point of view,that wearing of the kilt more often is needed to 'educate' people.Educate who?The scots do feel affronted when others,whether they be of scottish descent or not,start banging on about how their kilt should be worn.They know when to put it on and why,and what it means to them so who needs educating?Again this is from a cultural point of view.Wearing those alt kilts,etc is a different matter altogether and yes i could understand why people would be wanting educating about men wanting to wear that.I'm not saying they are bad,they're just not scottish heritage.

I found scots(some)can have a grin at times over someone else poking good natured fun at things like the kilt,bagpipes,their weather,etc providing you're not english!(joke,well,sort of) but what does make them react in a way ranging from private dissaproval to open annoyance is when they see someone who is claiming to be showing their "scottish heritage" doing and saying things that no normal scot would.

This has been an airing of my own personal views born of a scottish background and from living and working in scotland,influenced by scottish freinds and relatives in our present day.For what it's worth.Long live folk having the freedom to wear what they want.Long live those that preserve the scottish form of wearing the kilt too.

[Cynthia]

It sounds like the trouble with him is definitely far beyond a misunderstanding of the kilt and the dress code, then. You did what you thought was best, and good luck on this -- he sounds like a negative spot for that store. No company -- and definitely, no employees -- would want that. Best wishes!

Our company has an "aware line" that is set up for issues such as this or problems in the working environment. It can be completely anonymous (obviously not in my situation). But i did make a call to this line and talked to them i was told i was correct and was within dress code also the hr person on the other side of the line interpreted the managers comments as threatening (the comments about next time i wear it and such). Hr told me they were going to have to call him and have a talk with him. Also the store level person that told me it was ok to wear told me later the same day the manager got a call and was told the kilt was perfectly acceptable.


I understand every ones advice and i agree with a lot of the points made And i know by calling the line i made myself a target but this isn't the first problem ive had with said manager and im far from the only one who has had problems with him. i know of 3 times hr has been called on him in the last 2 months. I have held my tongue on a few occasions when the manager has done or said something inappropriate to me. He basically called me dumb in front of a dozen coworkers. When he first started at our store i was already working there and one of the first things he did was question all the managers about my pierced ears. Any way i truely believe i should be allowed to wear the kilt if i so choose. And i did take it a little further because i believe it should be allowed but also because it is just one to many things to hold my tongue on and allow him to get away with.

[Nighthawk]

Our company has an "aware line" that is set up for issues such as this or problems in the working environment. It can be completely anonymous (obviously not in my situation). But i did make a call to this line and talked to them i was told i was correct and was within dress code also the hr person on the other side of the line interpreted the managers comments as threatening (the comments about next time i wear it and such). Hr told me they were going to have to call him and have a talk with him. Also the store level person that told me it was ok to wear told me later the same day the manager got a call and was told the kilt was perfectly acceptable.


I understand every ones advice and i agree with a lot of the points made And i know by calling the line i made myself a target but this isn't the first problem ive had with said manager and im far from the only one who has had problems with him. i know of 3 times hr has been called on him in the last 2 months. I have held my tongue on a few occasions when the manager has done or said something inappropriate to me. He basically called me dumb in front of a dozen coworkers. When he first started at our store i was already working there and one of the first things he did was question all the managers about my pierced ears. Any way i truely believe i should be allowed to wear the kilt if i so choose. And i did take it a little further because i believe it should be allowed but also because it is just one to many things to hold my tongue on and allow him to get away with.

That was exactly my point. Said manager is nothing but a school yard bully. Eventually, you have to punch them in the face, because that's what they understand. Nice hit! Hopefully you proverbially broke his proverbial nose, and now he'll realize that you're going to stand up to him.

AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH, you seem to be using 2 different terms interchangably- "heritage" and "culture." Before I respond to you, let's get the definitions clear so that communication is clear! Kinda like when someone asks me if I'm wearing my family plaid, I always make sure to tell them the difference between tartan and plaid- it makes it so much easier to communicate if we're all using the same definitions of the same words! So with that having been said...

Heritage is defined as valued objects and qualities such as cultural traditions, unspoiled countryside, and historic buildings that have been passed down from previous generations

Culture is defined as:

a. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.
b. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.
c. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture.
d. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.

So heritage is inherited by birth; culture is learned from the society in which you grow up.

SO- with that in mind, I would point out to you that there is a good strong argument to made with regards to the Alt Kilt, Amerikilt, etc, being a modern expression of having Scottish heritage-- meaning a bloodline. If it can fall into the general definition of the word "kilt," which is a knee length pleated skirt with 2 front aprons typically (but not always) made of tartan wool, then there is a case to be made.

On the other hand, if you're claiming it as part of Scottish culture, then you are absolutely correct. Amerikilts, Alt Kilt, etc, are certainly not, and as a cultural claim, are indefensible.

Bear in mind- I'm not being argumentative here- just making points for clarity!