joining the clan

[gilmore]

Heralds were originally blowers of trumpets and recorders of battle honours, for which they had to be able to recognise the combatants by their livery. From that they grew to be authorities and eventually arbiters of what we now call heraldry. However, it has come to a sad point if a herald can tell you whether you exist....

If there is even one left then there is always someone who could claim the title of chief, and a herald would be presumptious to say anything more than whether they are entitled to a particular coat of arms.

It is not the authority of the herald's office itself (or Lord Lyon, in the case of Scotland) that determines the status of a clan but that of the sovereign, the fount of honor (or honour, as they call it there), which is the Crown in the UK and the Republic in Ireland. In the UK the Crown has delegated this responsibility to Lord Lyon as to the chiefships and existence of Scots clans. If you disagree with this way of doing things, I suggest you take it up with her.

[macwilkin]

It is not the authority of the herald's office itself (or Lord Lyon, in the case of Scotland) that determines the status of a clan but the sovereign, the fount of honor, which is the Crown in the UK and the Republic in Ireland. In the UK the Crown has delegated this responsibility to Lord Lyon as to the chiefships of Scots clans. If you disagree with this way of doing things, I suggest you take it up with her.

Well said.

For the record, 'The O'Callaghan' at the time was recognised by the Irish Record Office before they ceased to carry out that function, and he still has a living direct descendant who claims the title, albeit a Spanish citizen. However, as far as I can tell, the Callaghan clan society appears to be defunct, as they are not reachable at the last known address.

One the main reasons why the Irish Records Office no longer recognises Irish Chiefs is due to the Terence MacCarthy/MacCarthy Mor hoax back in the late '90s. Our own Rathdown is quite familiar with this particular incidient, so I'll yield the floor to him on the subject.

Regards,

Todd

[Jock Scot]

Well alright, helping out with clan affairs is a great thing to do,but if you want to be in a clan, then, with very few exceptions, wear the tartan and there you go. If your surname is "MacKarrot", or whatever, then that helps no end(in yours and other's minds perhaps) with wearing that particular tartan, if it really matters and of course it does to some. As a sept member of a clan, well, maybe it matters to some too, but in reallity there are no entrance exams, initiation rites, or whatever to join most(all?) clans. Of course the parting of a sum of money does, as always, "oil the wheels" and perhaps adds to the sense of belonging.

[macwilkin]

Well alright, helping out with clan affairs is a great thing to do,but if you want to be in a clan, then, with very few exceptions, wear the tartan and there you go. If your surname is "MacKarrot", or whatever, then that helps no end(in yours and other's minds perhaps) with wearing that particular tartan, if it really matters and of course it does to some. As a sept member of a clan, well, maybe it matters to some too, but in reallity there are no entrance exams, initiation rites, or whatever to join most(all?) clans. Of course the parting of a sum of money does, as always, "oil the wheels" and perhaps adds to the sense of belonging.

Jock and Matty:

I don't believe I ever once said that someone had to be a bona fide member of a society to be a member of a clan. However, whenever I hear someone make a comment about paying dues and not getting anything for it in a clan society, then I ask what they are willing to do to make their dues count. That's all. My heritage is mine by blood, and my subscription to a clan society is a way to demonstrate my pride (although not too much pride, being the descendant of Presbyterians) in my roots.

There are clan societies, and clan socities. Personally, I am very proud of mine, as we are trying to preserve the history and heritage of our clan, even though we are not a large, well-known clan like others. At the end of the day, I can feel good in the part I played to tell the story of my immigrant ancestors and the role they played in building this country, as well as the land from whence they came.

Regards,

Todd

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

The former Chief Herald of Ireland, Brendan O'Donoghue, made the decision that he would no longer confirm the pedigrees of those coming before the Office of Arms seeking recognition as an Irish clan chief. The incumbent Chief Herald has made no pronouncement on this matter, either pro or con, that I am aware of. Each Chief Herald, while in office, acts of his "own mere motion" and may, in the light of changing circumstances, alter the decisions of his predecessors.

Some Irish Chiefs, such as O'Conor Don and The O'Brien (Lord Inchequinn) take an active part in the affairs of their clans, especially amongst the diaspora. The O'Callaghan is probably less active than some of the other chiefs due, quite possibly, to a lack of fluency in the English language.

For better than fifty years the Scots have carefully nurtured the modern day concept of Scottish clans. For a variety of reasons, no such care has been taken in Ireland to encourage pride in the Irish clans until very recently. Quite what the position of Irish clans and Irish chiefs will be in fifty years is hard to predict. However, as the diaspora makes increasing demands for links to their kindred folk by way of the formation of Clan Societies and the adoption of Irish Clan Tartans, one thing seems certain-- there will be a proliferation of these clan societies and they will follow the well established Scottish model.

[O'Callaghan]

AFAIK, The O'Callaghan speaks English well enough. He may not be interested, which is OK.

I'm also aware of the McCarthy problem that led to the IRO ceasing to record Irish titles of nobility.

The relevant part of the Irish constitution states:

1° Titles of nobility shall not be conferred by the State.

2° No title of nobility or of honour may be accepted by any citizen except with the prior approval of the Government.

The IRO used to keep track of old existing Irish titles of nobility and their descent, before they stopped doing so, and I assume that they considered that existing hereditary titles are automatic and are neither "conferred by the State" nor "accepted by any citizen", but that they just exist as a fact on the ground. I know the IRO justified tracking them on the basis that titles are property, but that didn't stop them from ceasing to do it.

As far as such titles relate to defining who is the chief of a clan, then I suppose this relates to clans, but there is nothing here about clans, let alone whether any official can determine whether they are in existence or not.

Scotland is of course, another matter, but I personally would defer to Jock.

[macwilkin]

AFAIK, The O'Callaghan speaks English well enough. He may not be interested, which is OK.

I'm also aware of the McCarthy problem that led to the IRO ceasing to record Irish titles of nobility.

The relevant part of the Irish constitution states:

1° Titles of nobility shall not be conferred by the State.

2° No title of nobility or of honour may be accepted by any citizen except with the prior approval of the Government.

The IRO used to keep track of old existing Irish titles of nobility and their descent, before they stopped doing so, and I assume that they considered that existing hereditary titles are automatic and are neither "conferred by the State" nor "accepted by any citizen", but that they just exist as a fact on the ground. I know the IRO justified tracking them on the basis that titles are property, but that didn't stop them from ceasing to do it.

As far as such titles relate to defining who is the chief of a clan, then I suppose this relates to clans, but there is nothing here about clans, let alone whether any official can determine whether they are in existence or not.

Scotland is of course, another matter, but I personally would defer to Jock.

Information:

http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmur...s/register.htm

Regards,

Todd

[O'Callaghan]

Information:

http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmur...s/register.htm

Regards,

Todd

Interesting article.

AFAIK, the title of The O'Callaghan has passed to the next generation, as well a Spanish title also held.

[AcuteEnigma]

If you are wanting to JOIN Clan Buchanan, the California chapter at least is quite busy. I went to their AGM at Pleasanton, CA at the end of the summer. About 50-60 people were there. I even got a kiss from a cute guy that I was NOT expecting.

:-)

I'm not a member of that clan but my friends are. I've read their newsletter and there is certainly an active society.

http://www.buchanansociety.com/ {international}
http://www.geocities.com/ayebuchanan/index.html {USA}


If you are wanting to SWEAR FEALTY, you might want to check out the SCA instead.

[gilmore]

If you are wanting to JOIN Clan Buchanan, the California chapter at least is quite busy. I went to their AGM at Pleasanton, CA at the end of the summer. About 50-60 people were there. I even got a kiss from a cute guy that I was NOT expecting.

:-)

I'm not a member of that clan but my friends are. I've read their newsletter and there is certainly an active society.

http://www.buchanansociety.com/ {international}
http://www.geocities.com/ayebuchanan/index.html {USA}


If you are wanting to SWEAR FEALTY, you might want to check out the SCA instead.

A clan and a clan society are two quite different, though similar things.

Get angry if you like, but please try to do a bit of research before expressing it here.