Got in trouble for being kilted at work

[CDNSushi]

Back ON-topic....

I understand and realize that there are many libertarians on this forum -- people who take their personal freedoms and the rights of others very seriously. That is naturally a good thing. There's a reason why there are laws in the U.S. that protect religious and cultural expression, and other laws that make it necessary to accommodate those with special needs (like the Americans with Disabilities Act). Nothing wrong with that.

However, human nature will always prevail and let me state it bluntly: just because a law book says you have the RIGHT to do something doesn't mean everyone thinks you should. Whether or not you take it upon yourself to show such a person the error of their ways is really what's at stake here.

I don't think anyone here denies that we should have the RIGHT to wear a kilt to work (based on cultural diversity, freedom of expression, et cetera, and barring safety issues or other hazards), but to what extent is it wise to push for that right?

Remember, that the OP's manager used the word unprofessional to describe the kilt. What that tells me, is that everything else is moot. Invoking HR (or in this case, NOT invoking HR) is simply just the manager's attempt to legitimize his opinion that wearing a kilt is unprofessional. Perhaps he thinks it looks unmasculine. Maybe he just thinks men wearing kilts look strange. Maybe he feels that employees should all look a certain way. We don't know. What we DO know is that all the HR personnel in the world, with all the employee handbooks, and all the company policies, and all the individual protection laws, and all the ACLU activists in the world are most likely irrelevant unless they directly address why he dislikes kilts. They may well be able to FORCE the manager to comply and allow the OP to wear his kilt, but that doesn't mean that the manager will like it. Plus, if he is shown to be wrong, he will have lost face, which means he will like it even less.

So when it comes to working for a manager who: a) STILL thinks you are dressed inappropriately when b) he has been dressed down by top brass and c) has been made to lose face in front of everyone.... What are the chances that it will remain a pleasant place to work? Very little, I would say.

I know it may be distasteful to do so, but just put yourself in the manager's shoes. Think about it from his perspective. You've just arrived at work, and the first thing you see is one of your employees dressed unprofessionally. You've spoken to him about it but he asserts that he already cleared it with HR and they said it was okay. So you tell him that you'll put up with it just this day, but to please not come dressed like that in the future...

You think that's the end of it, but a few days later you get a call from an HR manager at head office who wants to talk to you about cultural diversity. You learn that someone in your store has been causing trouble for you at head office and going over your head. And now, they are telling you that you don't have the right to stop YOUR employees from expressing themselves, in spite of the fact that it would make them look like complete clowns, embarrassing you, and making the store look like a joke! Not to mention the fact that now, every time this guy looks like crap, all the other staff will look at YOU and think that YOU'RE the bad guy... How does that make you feel about that employee that started this whole mess? What's going to go through your head each time you have to look at him? Human nature says you're probably going to be pretty resentful and not like him very much after that...

Anyway, I'm not saying NOT to fight this. I'm not saying DON'T go to HR and get the official go-ahead to wear a kilt. But just realize that by doing so, you may end up alienating the manager, and making your overall work situation a lot less pleasant than before. Ergo, consider very carefully whether this is a fight really worth fighting. It IS possible in cases like this to win the battle but lose the war.

[Cowher]

Those who say it wise to not fight use the same reasoning. Don't fight it because if you do your manager will resent you.
When the English government raised taxes and heightened the grip on the colonists, the colonists dumped the tea into the ocean. When the Egyptian people had enough of their government overbearing on their lives they revolted. No matter what country or back ground we are from we have examples of people fighting for what is right or fair in their minds. Regardless of the difficulties they may have to endure. This issue is bigger than mr manager it's about right and wrong. If the manager is wrong then he needs to be corrected regardless of if he will like it.
CDNSushi: I know what you are saying about how the manager will feel. But let's kick this back to let's say 200 years ago. You can say the same thing about a slave owner. He thinks his slaves are only good for working. What do you think he would feel about his slaves eating with him or sitting next to him? Or maybe you can think back to history class when in the old west Asians were looked at as disgusting clowns? Is it right to be disgusted that a black person can eat with you? Is it right for some one to abuse a asian and make him into a fool? NO!!! Will the offending party be resentful? Ya darn right they will! But who cares? Freedom of the slaves has nothing to do with the slave owners. It has to do with the oppression of a people.
What I'm trying to say is if people were always afraid of what the "manager" was going to think no one would have much freedom at all.

[Lallans]

Those who say it wise to not fight use the same reasoning. Don't fight it because if you do your manager will resent you.
When the English government raised taxes and heightened the grip on the colonists, the colonists dumped the tea into the ocean. When the Egyptian people had enough of their government overbearing on their lives they revolted. No matter what country or back ground we are from we have examples of people fighting for what is right or fair in their minds. Regardless of the difficulties they may have to endure. This issue is bigger than mr manager it's about right and wrong. If the manager is wrong then he needs to be corrected regardless of if he will like it.
CDNSushi: I know what you are saying about how the manager will feel. But let's kick this back to let's say 200 years ago. You can say the same thing about a slave owner. He thinks his slaves are only good for working. What do you think he would feel about his slaves eating with him or sitting next to him? Or maybe you can think back to history class when in the old west Asians were looked at as disgusting clowns? Is it right to be disgusted that a black person can eat with you? Is it right for some one to abuse a asian and make him into a fool? NO!!! Will the offending party be resentful? Ya darn right they will! But who cares? Freedom of the slaves has nothing to do with the slave owners. It has to do with the oppression of a people.
What I'm trying to say is if people were always afraid of what the "manager" was going to think no one would have much freedom at all.

[The above post and others]: I'm all for the Rights Of Man stuff. I admire people who died for the cause of freedom and hopefully would do so myself if necessary, but I don't think a retail store in tough times is the place to fight a minor personal-choice battle and thereby risk losing what is presumably scarce employment; I mean basically this is just a disagreement over a clothing issue, not taxation without representation or religious persecution. The OP is there and involved and has made his own decision on the matter, but that is my view.

[Cowher]

Although it is largely a moot point, it seems that we are actually arguing two different and somewhat opposite points.

While I don't think that a kilt is outside of most dress codes, this is probably not by intention but simply because the kilt was not on the mind of whoever wrote that dress code. However when faced with a situation like this where one is told not to wear the kilt, and choosing to fight, it helps to be coming at this from one position not two.

If the kilt is a Scottish (or even Celtic) garment and is worn because of culture or heritage, then by all means pursue this from the obvious discrimination angle.

If the kilt is simply an article of clothing that can be worn by anyone at any time regardless of culture or heritage, then pursue it from a strictly procedural argument about the dress code not actually forbidding it.

But to argue that it is a birthright to wear the kilt but those that lack that birthright also have the right to wear it, seems to me to be self defeating. I understand that the kilt has expanded way beyond it's original area or both geography and use, but in a workplace case like this it seems best to pick a battle and fight it, but stick to a single battlefront.

I agree wholeheartedly

[The above post and others]: I'm all for the Rights Of Man stuff. I admire people who died for the cause of freedom and hopefully would do so myself if necessary, but I don't think a retail store in tough times is the place to fight a minor personal-choice battle and thereby risk losing what is presumably scarce employment; I mean basically this is just a disagreement over a clothing issue, not taxation without representation or religious persecution. The OP is there and involved and has made his own decision on the matter, but that is my view.

I most defitinatly am taking this situation as it was happening to me. To me my freedom and happiness is worth loosing a job over. I am in no way pushing my opinion on anyone but if you want to do something and the rules do not restrict it then you should be able to do it. If HR told the OP that kilts were restricted due to safety reasons then I would be singing a different tune but the manager in this situation is the weak link not the company itself. I appologise if I gave the wrong impression.

[Cowher]

Maybe he will execute the offending rabble?!? It was good knowing you failedgod.

[Nighthawk]

AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH- I'm not going to quote you. You write even longer-winded than I!! I've imposed the skill of an editor on myself...

So- I agree with you. That's why I reserve my traditional 8 yard tank for formal occasions. Or when it's especially cold out! That sucker is toasty! However, I am not Scottish. I am American. I have Scottish heritage. That's why I brought up the difference between culture and heritage. I was raised with both Scottish and Irish influences, from both sides of my family. My dad took me to Highland games when I was a kid, and introduced me to the joys of Celtic music, both from the motherlands and from the diaspora, meaning bluegrass, of course! But I do not identify as either Scots or Irish- I am a New World Celt, and when people as if I'm Scottish/Irish, that's what I tell them- I'm Celtic. Thing I love about being American is that we're such a young country! We can develop a culture of our own that's based in the traditions of our ancestors, and yet still it's own unique culture! I have embraced the modern American kilt for that exact reason! It's perfectly me- one foot firmly in the ancient traditions, and yet still a part of the new world! In my mind, it's a way of embracing heritage, while becoming a part of an emerging culture. And really, it's this philosophy of mine that makes me so animate in making sure that people understand the difference between culture and heritage. It's also why I get so offended when someone tells me that I can't embrace my own culture, which is in fact that of the New World Celt. I feel it important especially to celebrate Tartan Day because it is, to my knowledge, the one and only holiday that is unique to the New World Celts! It is ours! St. Andrew's Day and Burns Night are celebrated, too, and they're tied to the old culture, but Tartan Day originated in Canada, and spread to North America, making it us! And to me, that's hugely important. Keeping the old world traditions keeps us grounded, and evolving our own traditions makes us a unique culture all our own. The native Scots and Irish on this board are my cousins across the ocean. The New World Celts here in this country are my brothers and sisters.

Wow... Does this make any sense at all?

[Dale Seago]

Wow... Does this make any sense at all?

Does to me, at least!

[Zardoz]

well put Nighthawk!

[Nighthawk]

well put Nighthawk!

Does to me, at least!

Thanks! I rant... It's good to know that I make sense to people other than myself!! It shows that I'm not completely delusional.

[GreenDragon]

AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH- I'm not going to quote you. You write even longer-winded than I!! I've imposed the skill of an editor on myself...

So- I agree with you. That's why I reserve my traditional 8 yard tank for formal occasions. Or when it's especially cold out! That sucker is toasty! However, I am not Scottish. I am American. I have Scottish heritage. That's why I brought up the difference between culture and heritage. I was raised with both Scottish and Irish influences, from both sides of my family. My dad took me to Highland games when I was a kid, and introduced me to the joys of Celtic music, both from the motherlands and from the diaspora, meaning bluegrass, of course! But I do not identify as either Scots or Irish- I am a New World Celt, and when people as if I'm Scottish/Irish, that's what I tell them- I'm Celtic. Thing I love about being American is that we're such a young country! We can develop a culture of our own that's based in the traditions of our ancestors, and yet still it's own unique culture! I have embraced the modern American kilt for that exact reason! It's perfectly me- one foot firmly in the ancient traditions, and yet still a part of the new world! In my mind, it's a way of embracing heritage, while becoming a part of an emerging culture. And really, it's this philosophy of mine that makes me so animate in making sure that people understand the difference between culture and heritage. It's also why I get so offended when someone tells me that I can't embrace my own culture, which is in fact that of the New World Celt. I feel it important especially to celebrate Tartan Day because it is, to my knowledge, the one and only holiday that is unique to the New World Celts! It is ours! St. Andrew's Day and Burns Night are celebrated, too, and they're tied to the old culture, but Tartan Day originated in Canada, and spread to North America, making it us! And to me, that's hugely important. Keeping the old world traditions keeps us grounded, and evolving our own traditions makes us a unique culture all our own. The native Scots and Irish on this board are my cousins across the ocean. The New World Celts here in this country are my brothers and sisters.

Wow... Does this make any sense at all?

Makes perfect sense to me. My thoughts exactly.